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Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

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Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#891

Post by Throwawaay1199 »

Razengan wrote: post #880
hijklmno wrote: post #696

It's not Apple vs. Fortnite. It's actually Apple vs. Users. Apple has been taking us for a ride this whole time. We pay damn much and buy the phone. It is the user's property from then on. What the user install's and uninstall's from his phone should be his decision. Taking a cut of say, 3%, to keep the app store running is forgivable. But 30% digging into users pocket is unpardonable. Apple is no longer the underdog…

> It's actually Apple vs. Users. Apple has been taking us for a ride this whole time. Oh please. Nobody who actually uses Apple feels that way. Though I agree they should allow a way to sideload apps. One of the downsides of being primarily an iOS dev is not being able to participate in activities like game-jams because there's no way to casually share my stuff with other users. > Taking a cut of say, 3%, to keep the…

> Apple protects its users better than the other major players

Who wants them to stop doing that?

They can still do that for the apps which chose to get the full treatment. This is not the problem here. The problem is that they don't give you an option to not participate. No alternative way. So let's not pretend here. It's all about MORE money here. They won't go broke if they allow what Epic did. They'll just get less and this is it. This is what it's all about.

I don't understand this sentiment of playing marketing division for them by some users here. It's quite disgusting actually. Do you get money for that? Seriously. You'd lose NOTHING if Apple would change so what's your motivation here? It makes no sense at all.

And yes, I created an extra account for that because you people are toxic as hell when the topic is Apple and someone is not part of the circlejerk.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#892

Post by zuhsetaqi »

badestrand wrote: post #761
BoboDupla wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might be mistaken, but wasn't this the policy Apple had since the beginning of AppStore? Every developer and user knew from the beginning what they are getting into. With Windows it is different, no? It would be a drastic change to a product, which operated differently at the beginning.

Yes, the fee has been there since the beginning, if you use their payment system. I think the new and problematic policy is that they now - forbid you to use other payment systems than their own - forbid you to just add the 30% to your price on iOS compared to other platforms - forbid you to mention to the user that they can pay on the company's website or through other channels Also their own product's don't have to…

> forbid you to just add the 30% to your price on iOS compared to other platforms

That’s new to me. Any source of that?

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#893

Post by saagarjha »

mojuba wrote: post #883
fastball wrote: post #807

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but Apple prohibits the installation of apps that are not from their app store.

True, but you are free to install only free apps, or no apps, or only your own apps pushed directly onto the phone. In fact you are free to fully operate without iCloud/AppStore (if I'm not mistaken)

Buying a general-purpose computing device to run a handful of built-in applications is not really fully operating it.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#894

Post by fastball »

krrrh wrote: post #870
BillinghamJ wrote: post #848

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is inaccurate. Your comparison would be closer if the purchase of pods was handled by Amazon Any comparison with physically shipped goods isn't going to be particularly relevant here

It would be even more accurate if Nespresso gave away free machines on amazon that could only heat water, expected Amazon to advertise them, ship them free to prime customers and handle returns and customer support, and also insisted that pods required to do anything with the machine were exclusively available direct from Nespresso. Though, in the real world of physical goods Amazon also sells generic pods from all s…

Epic isn't demanding anything. Apple's involvement has nothing to do with who can sell hats on Fortnite.

Epic also isn't "expecting" Apple to do all that. Apple does all that as part of paying for an Apple Developer License. If their costs are not being recouped by that, they should charge what it's actually costing them to deliver those services.

They should not be charging 30% on transactions they don't need to have any hand in, and the only reason they can is because they are using their monopoly position to force participants to use them as the payment processor.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#895

Post by ralfn »

AdrianB1 wrote: post #856
ralfn wrote: post #827

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because its the sort of above most transaction fees of most payment providers in the world. But Apple can ask whatever they want. They can't block side-loading though. That's the uncompetitive part. You can run your store and pick whatever terms you like. You can't use your marketshare in hardware sales to bundle a forced store. Imagine Tesla charging you 30% of any grocery shopping (i.e. would refuse to open the doo…

Not trying to debate, just having an idea: the percentage versus fix cost is coming from the tax system. You don't pay a fix dollar tax per citizen, but a percentage of your income. I can see private companies doing the same.

>You don't pay a fix dollar tax per citizen, but a percentage of your income

Yeah, the government has a monopoly on that.

> I can see private companies doing the same.

You must be American then. This is where all this friction comes from. Corporations aren't people, nor should they be government.

This is not because the people who work there are bad people or something, but because they are legally binded to do whatever maximizes profits. They are by definition not operating in the common good (they are not supposed to!). There is no democratic oversight.

You can imagine companies doing the same. As a European, i can't. It's a problem. And its fake innovation anyway. Where is the America that did real research and real innovation? That put people on the moon? These days all you guys are good for is 'bussiness model innovations'. Ways to cheat, extort or externalize the costs. Quality of life is just going downhill the more of these type of products one uses. Technology is regressing.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#896

Post by saagarjha »

gwd wrote: post #722
grenoire wrote: post #710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The android ecosystem and OEM's lack of support for older phones (for one) is something that is 'forcing' me to enter their walled garden. I can't, also as a customer, ignore that Apple has done a lot of things very well, but that doesn't at all stop me from also complaining about their bad practices.

Don't you think these things may have some relationship to each other? All the work Apple does has to be paid for somehow; and realistically, in a for-profit company like Apple, has to be paid for in a way that will generate not just barely enough to pay for itself, but has to be paid for in a way that will generate lots of profits. Google makes money off of advertising. Apple makes money, in part, off of taxing apps…

> All the work Apple does has to be paid for somehow

How about the money they make selling iPhones?

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#897

Post by SifJar »

pfranz wrote: post #496
danShumway wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would the ability to sideload apps force you to install apps outside of the Apple store? I'm not forced to use FDroid just because I have an Android phone. People aren't arguing that the app store should go away, just that consumers should have a choice. As an analogy, if I want OEM care for my car, I can get that. It's more expensive, but it offers me strict guarantees about where parts are coming from, and I do…

Just look at the PC platform Epic is coming from. It used to be just buying retail boxes, then Steam came along. Now it's Steam, Epic, Origin, Uplay. Personally, I hate keeping track of the separate apps and which games were purchased with each. So I avoid most of them even for games I want to play. Its one of the things that makes me prefer consoles. The current situation seems more anti-business than anti-consumer…

One difference is (at least with alternate app stores on Android, and I assume it'd hypothetically be the case on iOS), regardless of where you install a mobile app from, it appears on your app drawer/home screen. You don't have to go through a specific launcher for each store/platform as you do with Steam/Origin etc. (I think... been a while since I've used any of them). So in most senses, it may not "matter" where you bought it from (assuming all app stores can do auto-updates or notify you of available updates etc.)

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#898

Post by donkeyd »

fastball wrote: post #839

To everyone that is supporting Apple's position, let me run this hypothetical by you: You buy a Nespresso machine on Amazon. Some amount of the purchase price goes to Amazon for facilitating the transaction and delivering it to you, some goes to Nespresso for actually making the device. Cool. Then you get a pod subscription from Nespresso – let's say there is a touch screen on the coffee machine itself where you ente…

This looks like a great analogy, but it isn't. The app is still running on an Apple platform, with updates going through Apple infrastructure. It's a completely different situation.

Don't get me wrong, this statement isn't in support of Apple, I'm just saying that your analogy is bad.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#899

Post by pankajdoharey »

hijklmno wrote: post #696

It's not Apple vs. Fortnite. It's actually Apple vs. Users. Apple has been taking us for a ride this whole time. We pay damn much and buy the phone. It is the user's property from then on. What the user install's and uninstall's from his phone should be his decision. Taking a cut of say, 3%, to keep the app store running is forgivable. But 30% digging into users pocket is unpardonable. Apple is no longer the underdog…

Google also kicked Epic out but no body is talking about that not even Epic. Maybe because Statistically Android users are less likely to pay for apps and services than iOS users. So clearly iOS is where the money is and nothing wrong in Apple trying to protect that.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#900

Post by fastball »

donkeyd wrote: post #898
fastball wrote: post #839

To everyone that is supporting Apple's position, let me run this hypothetical by you: You buy a Nespresso machine on Amazon. Some amount of the purchase price goes to Amazon for facilitating the transaction and delivering it to you, some goes to Nespresso for actually making the device. Cool. Then you get a pod subscription from Nespresso – let's say there is a touch screen on the coffee machine itself where you ente…

This looks like a great analogy, but it isn't. The app is still running on an Apple platform, with updates going through Apple infrastructure. It's a completely different situation. Don't get me wrong, this statement isn't in support of Apple, I'm just saying that your analogy is bad.

The analogy holds. If I need a replacement part for my Nespresso (app updates) and I order that on Amazon, then Amazon gets their cut for facilitating and fulfilling the delivery of this replacement part. That's reasonable, because you are taking some portion of proceeds from a transaction that you have a hand in.

What is not reasonable is for Apple to take a cut from transactions that do not need to involve them. If Epic sells hats in their own online store and don't use Apple as the payment processor, this costs Apple nothing. No bandwidth costs, no nothing.

If Apple wants to charge Fortnite whatever it costs to distribute Fortnite updates on the App Store + 30% on top as their fee for delivering that service, I am 100% sure Epic would be OK with that.

This is not what they are doing.

---

Here's an extreme hypothetical to illustrate how Apple is using their monopoly position for rent-seeking:

Imagine you have an app that is downloaded 100 times in the App Store. It is not marketed, advertised, other otherwise promoted by Apple.

In total, it costs Apple pennies to provide this service to your customers. You never push an update to the App Store – it is always on version 1.0.0. You are already paying Apple $99 per year for the privilege of your app being in their App Store, so they're pocketing a tidy profit.

Now imagine that you offer a subscription service, which all 100 customers who downloaded your app are paying for. This subscription costs $100 a month.

Apple is not involved in the delivery of this subscription at all (except in the delivery of the original app, which you are already paying $99py for), but Apple wants to take $30,000 a month from you, for something that in total cost them pennies.

If that's not ludicrous rent-seeking, I don't know what is. Obviously this is an extreme, totally made-up example, but the entire point is that it is bad to insert yourself into a transaction where you are not providing any added value – charge at the point where you are involved. Do not use your monopoly position to force yourself into transactions where you really have no business being.

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