Twitter Will Allow Employees to Work at Home Forever • Hacker News Board

Re: Twitter Will Allow Employees to Work at Home Forever

#891

Post by acituan » Wed, May 13, 2020, 3:49 PM UTC

bun_at_work wrote: post #843

acituan wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are overestimating the size of the eligible labor supply increase. Just for Google, for 2017-2019 the number of H1B workers sponsored was 22k. For the same period the increase in number of full time employees was 40k (couldn’t find the figure for US only but fair to assume majority is US-based). So more than half of the new employers are supplied internationally. Does the geo-unlocked US supply pose a sub…

I'm curious - you seem to be saying that FAANG companies can't find enough employees, but your support for the point is that Google hired a significant amount of H1B workers. However, I've read/seen that many H1B workers work for significantly less, and under more pressure, because they are trying to become citizens in the US. Is it possible that the reason for FAANG companies hiring so many H1B workers isn't due to…

My main point was, a globally distributed labor pool is already accessible to FAANG and is being utilized despite higher transition costs both for the employer and the employee. The H1B hires for FAANG is the global top talent for which companies compete for, hence an upward pressure for compensation, not downward. In fact you can check the H1B salary information yourself from the website I linked, to see that salaries are at par with US levels. I admit there might be some difference is non-salary compensation such as signing bonuses and inital stock grants, but I would attribute that to lack/difficulty of deploying local negotiation tactics (e.g get several offers and pit them to each other). In general price of the labor is not a driving factor at all. Besides, most of these companies will happily pay for a law firm to help with the green card application process of their employees, and H1B is transferable to a new employer, possibly to another FAANG company. Yes, all of these pose transition costs, but it is far from the desparate overworked underpaid foreign worker image painted.

For your second point, the delta of the “higher salary” is important. US ranks the highest in sofware engineer salaries globally, which means for most countries coming to US as a software engineer will mean a much higher increase in salary than within US. If that delta offsets the perceived cost of leaving friends and family behind, they it is rational to take the offer. In other words, non-US candidates need to be hurting much more than US candidates to lose access to friends and family to not take the offer. In fact they already do, they lose access to their culture and their language unless they are from anglosphere. They still take the offers, so the income differential must be more than adequate to make the transition. Additionally, individual cost function of losing access to these things will differ. Many people will actively seek a challenge away from their friends and families to take up new opportunities and experiences. Your friends seems to have not.

Re: Twitter Will Allow Employees to Work at Home Forever

#892

Post by [deleted] » Wed, May 13, 2020, 3:50 PM UTC

steev wrote: post #815

intended wrote: post #636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are underestimating the issues which need to be overcome with WFH Infrastructure: Do homes have chargers, desks, screens? If not people will soon get carpal tunnel or lose productivity. Internet/VPN security costs are real. Productivity creep : Some of the main issues with WFH have been work hour creep. Managers and other employees feel its easier to make requests for more time given that you are now a few fee…

I work from home as a software engineer at a major tech company. Infrastructure: my company provides money to setup your workspace. Buying a desk is the most expensive part here but really you can get a solid setup for Internet costs: I was already paying ~$120/mo and I get some of that reimbursed. This seems like a standard living cost though, not something unique to working remotely. Productivity creep: I define my…

[deleted]

Re: Twitter Will Allow Employees to Work at Home Forever

#893

Post by twblalock » Wed, May 13, 2020, 3:50 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #808

twblalock wrote: post #758

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FAANG companies have already been trying to hire in US cities outside of Silicon Valley and Seattle in order to cut costs. Austin in particular comes to mind. It turns out to be fairly difficult to recruit engineering talent in the United States outside of major metropolitan areas. It also turns out that when tech companies start to hire people in a new city, the cost of living in that city rises substantially -- aga…

That’s a great example of why restricting to offices doesn’t work for expanding your labor pool significantly. If a company starts a new office in Austin and they had one in the bay, now they are realistically only tapping the additional talent in Austin. There isn’t a huge chunk of people willing to relocate to Austin that wouldn’t relocate to the bay. Removing location restrictions all-together is a completely diff…

I think most of the best tech workers are already living in major cities. Before the virus lockdowns started, those people were required to work in offices just like everyone else, so they had to move to where there employers were located.

I don’t really buy the argument that there is a major untapped pool of talent living outside major cities — if there is, what have those people been doing for work until now? It hasn’t been easy to have a good career in tech in rural areas, for example.

Re: Twitter Will Allow Employees to Work at Home Forever

#894

Post by intended » Wed, May 13, 2020, 3:52 PM UTC

steev wrote: post #815

intended wrote: post #636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are underestimating the issues which need to be overcome with WFH Infrastructure: Do homes have chargers, desks, screens? If not people will soon get carpal tunnel or lose productivity. Internet/VPN security costs are real. Productivity creep : Some of the main issues with WFH have been work hour creep. Managers and other employees feel its easier to make requests for more time given that you are now a few fee…

I work from home as a software engineer at a major tech company. Infrastructure: my company provides money to setup your workspace. Buying a desk is the most expensive part here but really you can get a solid setup for Internet costs: I was already paying ~$120/mo and I get some of that reimbursed. This seems like a standard living cost though, not something unique to working remotely. Productivity creep: I define my…

All of the points are taken from research and surveys.

https://smallbiztrends.com/2020/02/remote-workers-are-lonely...

https://interactions.acm.org/archive/view/march-april-2014/h...

Re: Twitter Will Allow Employees to Work at Home Forever

#895

Post by ryanSrich » Wed, May 13, 2020, 3:54 PM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #850

matwood wrote: post #829

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really miss being in the office with my coworkers and friends. Are you young, single, and live in an apartment? I have noticed a divide along those lines with WFH. As an older, married person, living in a house with a yard, I haven't worked in an office for any length of time for last 10 years. None of my close friends are related to work. I like having lunch with my wife and going out back with the dogs when I n…

Age of children is also factor. I suspect people enjoy the escape an office provides when they have toddlers. I really enjoy having lunch with my teenage kids everyday thanks to Covid. Working from home has been a blessing.

Kids are a spectrum. The lockdown is so different depending on how old your kids are:

Infant = stressed, but manageable

Toddler = worst case scenario

Young child = second worst case scenario

Teen = enjoyable

Re: Twitter Will Allow Employees to Work at Home Forever

#896

Post by bun_at_work » Wed, May 13, 2020, 3:59 PM UTC

acituan wrote: post #891

bun_at_work wrote: post #843

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious - you seem to be saying that FAANG companies can't find enough employees, but your support for the point is that Google hired a significant amount of H1B workers. However, I've read/seen that many H1B workers work for significantly less, and under more pressure, because they are trying to become citizens in the US. Is it possible that the reason for FAANG companies hiring so many H1B workers isn't due to…

My main point was, a globally distributed labor pool is already accessible to FAANG and is being utilized despite higher transition costs both for the employer and the employee. The H1B hires for FAANG is the global top talent for which companies compete for, hence an upward pressure for compensation, not downward. In fact you can check the H1B salary information yourself from the website I linked, to see that salari…

Actually, I think is misrepresented what I was trying to ask by including salary. I don't think or have any evidence to suggest H1B salaries are lower, only that pressure on H1B employees is higher to perform, as they are working for more than just the salary, but also the visa.

Thanks for your detailed response, though. I understand what you're saying more clearly.

Re: Twitter Will Allow Employees to Work at Home Forever

#897

Post by bobwaycott » Wed, May 13, 2020, 3:59 PM UTC

evancox100 wrote: post #842

barry-cotter wrote: post #766

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It also turns out that when tech companies start to hire people in a new city, the cost of living in that city rises substantially -- again, Austin in particular comes to mind. That is inevitable if more housing is not built. If demand rises and supply doesn’t, or rises slower than demand rents and house prices rise. Or you could be like Tokyo with population growing 50% over the last twenty years and flat housing…

Do you know anything about Austin? There are cranes all over downtown, mid-rise apartment buildings sprouting up everywhere, etc. We’re certainly not perfect in terms of housing, could use more “missing middle” housing such as duplexes/triplexes/etc., but the idea we are not allowing new housing is crazy. Costs are still going up, definitely the most expensive big city in Texas at this point, but obviously nowhere ne…

The parent, responding to a comment that mentions Austin, never suggested new housing wasn’t allowed—you seem to have inserted that thought yourself. They simply observed that housing supply—and how well it matches (and avoids lagging behind) demand—has an impact on cost of living. They don’t even make a point about Austin specifically—Tokyo is the place they call specific attention to as a point of comparison to the GP’s thoughts.

I find it interesting you chose to defend Austin against an attack that wasn’t made.

Of course, I also think there may be more than housing supply at work to explain why cost of living increases in a place that starts to see a new uptick in tech hiring. I’m not sure if anyone has studied and documented the extent to which increased tech hiring in a new location leads to a surge of new people trying to live in that area before cost of living begins to increase. If that isn’t the case, and cost of living and goods starts increasing before population does, it seems likely there’s more than housing supply to blame— perhaps all the existing property and business owners start raising prices to get some of those sweet tech dollars in their pockets?

Re: Twitter Will Allow Employees to Work at Home Forever

#898

Post by allendoerfer » Wed, May 13, 2020, 4:01 PM UTC

ryanSrich wrote: post #895

austincheney wrote: post #850

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Age of children is also factor. I suspect people enjoy the escape an office provides when they have toddlers. I really enjoy having lunch with my teenage kids everyday thanks to Covid. Working from home has been a blessing.

Kids are a spectrum. The lockdown is so different depending on how old your kids are: Infant = stressed, but manageable Toddler = worst case scenario Young child = second worst case scenario Teen = enjoyable

So essentially: Kids are annoying. Babies are sweet though.

Re: Twitter Will Allow Employees to Work at Home Forever

#899

Post by bbutterworth » Wed, May 13, 2020, 4:04 PM UTC

dkdk8283 wrote: post #889

cameronbrown wrote: post #821

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I enjoy this argument. Why is getting distracted by a friendly face so bad?

It’s selfish on behalf of the distractor. When using async communication the person can wait until they’re out of the flow and respond. This is one of the great things about email, and the worst thing about Slack.

for me slack is an async function. its on silent, the entire time. And my time slices are large (2±1 hours)

Re: Twitter Will Allow Employees to Work at Home Forever

#900

Post by jdreaver » Wed, May 13, 2020, 4:07 PM UTC

ryanSrich wrote: post #895

austincheney wrote: post #850

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Age of children is also factor. I suspect people enjoy the escape an office provides when they have toddlers. I really enjoy having lunch with my teenage kids everyday thanks to Covid. Working from home has been a blessing.

Kids are a spectrum. The lockdown is so different depending on how old your kids are: Infant = stressed, but manageable Toddler = worst case scenario Young child = second worst case scenario Teen = enjoyable

As someone with an infant and a toddler, working from home, this hits the nail on the head. I have been working remotely my whole career, and I love it, but working at home _with_ children there is about 5x harder.