Kickstarter employees vote to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#891

Post by wpietri » Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:28 AM UTC

carapace wrote: post #412

wpietri wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's becoming my take as well. I think the tech industry was, at least for a while, an exception here. Developers were so hard to get and retain that the power of individual workers did a lot to keep things sane. But I think that power is, for a variety of reasons, waning. If we want to keep our unusually good working conditions, and especially if we want to make sure our colleagues enjoy them as well, then I think…

Here's an interesting (IMO) one: https://www.windings.com/about-us/ > For more than 50 years, Windings has provided engineered electromagnetic solutions for critical applications in Aerospace, Defense, Automotive, Medical, Oil & Gas and general Factory Automation. As a full-service provider, Windings is a leader in the design, test, manufacture and support of custom electric motors, generators and related components…

Thanks! Do you have a connection to it? I'd be very curious to hear an inside take.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#892

Post by kerkeslager » Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:36 AM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #789

kerkeslager wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers don't want this because 1) at least in the US, our educational system is prohibitively costly, and your solution proposes putting the cost of that on developers, including not having time off for education, and 2) that's mostly a problem for employers, not developers--I'm quite capable of working with poorly-qualified and poorly-skilled developers and my work looks better by comparison. You're proposing th…

> You're proposing that developers pay to solve their employers' problem. Education is completely orthogonal to licensing or certification. If education is your primary basis of qualification then you are at best a beginner. I am proposing that developers pay to justify higher wages and cut through subjective hiring bullshit as part of their union dues they would pay for anyways to be a member of said union. When hav…

> I am proposing that developers pay to justify higher wages and cut through subjective hiring bullshit

Why is that a problem developers need to solve? A bad hiring process hurts the company much more than developers.

> The rest of your points don't make any sense. You don't need any education to be a developer. For example, I am completely self taught. I have also worked with some incredibly talented developers who have no college at all.

That's good for you and them, but if you have certifications, there are going to be tests for those certifications, and people are going to want an effective way to learn the material necessary to pass those tests. I've taught myself things, and I've learned things from teachers, and the latter is much faster for me and most people. So if you want me to get a certification, I'm going to want you to pay for me to take a class geared toward that certification. Certification classes = education.

I'll also point out that a bachelor's degree in CS is a certification, which you seem to think isn't much of a value added. So which is it: are certifications a value added or not?

> Without some value added quality like licensing

How is licensing an added value for developers?

> I also suspect the developers who are most strongly opposed to licensing or certification are those who have never completed a certification in any field.

I'm not opposed to certification. I'm opposed to requiring certifications in order to work in development, and then forcing would-be developers to pay for it. I learned a lot in my J2EE certification class when my employer paid for it, and while I don't think I've ever even put that on my resumé, the knowledge gained does show up sometimes in these non-objective interviews you're complaining about. :)

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#893

Post by rs23296008n1 » Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:40 AM UTC

quickthrower2 wrote: post #886

_jal wrote: post #827

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So close, but not quite right. You get free snacks at the office for the same reason people sitting at slot machines get free drinks - because someone wants you to stay there.

And get diabetes

Plenty of companies provide fruit. Apples are not strong causes of diabetes last time I looked.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#894

Post by chillacy » Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:43 AM UTC

untog wrote: post #845

TylerE wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are buying more than the snacks. They are buying you time, since you never need to make office grocery runs to stock your desk. Might not be a huge deal, but elimination of chores really is a perk.

No, they’re trying to make sure you never leave the office. A walk down the street to the nearest grocery store is a nice break, but not one the company wants you taking.

I'm under the impression that the practice started in the bay area where the nearest grocery store is a nice 10 minute drive away.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#895

Post by qtplatypus » Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:48 AM UTC

ksr_throwaway wrote: post #476

For those who are curious this union drive was really started by extreme incompetence from upper management. The former CEO hired ineffective status-seekers (including the current CEO) into many positions of power which created a super toxic environment. Accountability for internal problems has been extremely low. The "Always Punch Nazis" controversy was just the straw that broke the camel's back. People in the bay a…

> extreme incompetence from upper management.

I don’t think that any unionisation has ever came about due to the management being competent and treating their workers well.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#896

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:51 AM UTC

epicureanideal wrote: post #791

duxup wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Athletic unions are generally there because the top leagues are monolithic, there aren't other places to go with similar compensation. It's sort of a different playing field.

In tech the monolithic nature arises differently. The Top Companies pay X, and that sets the ceiling for most people's wages. The difficulty of getting into Top Companies means that most other companies know they can pay somewhat less than that. Although it's claimed there's a talent shortage and in theory that would cause engineers to be able to negotiate for large salaries, most businesses just don't think that dee…

[deleted]

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#897

Post by chillacy » Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:54 AM UTC

duxup wrote: post #597

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so you have 2 options to make dollar money as an engineer: Google & Facebook. Apple, Microsoft, and Amazon pay well, but 10-20% less for the same level. There's a handful of others that will pay about 20-40% less. The average startup is paying 40-70% less. And, sure, you'll always run into some startup that's paying one or two engineers a million dollars. Stephon Marbury made more money when he left the NBA to…

I don't think those options are the only ones and I think your numbers are dramatically far off for everything.

Those aren't the only options anymore, Netflix is for instance famous for compensating very well, and large startups can be competitive too. https://www.levels.fyi/

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#898

Post by chillacy » Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 6:58 AM UTC

jbob2000 wrote: post #609

boomlinde wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Workers' unions represent workers, not consumers or society as a whole, so why should they care about whether the workers they represent work at "essential" corporations?

Because some stress is more justified than others. If somebody was stressed out as a travel blogger, would you favour their unionization over a stressed out retail worker? That's essentially what I'm getting at, the stress at kickstarter isn't worth their mission. But at other companies, the stress is worth it, so therefore the unionization is worth it.

It's not like unionization is a zero sum game, why would a travel blogger's choices affect the retail worker's?

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#899

Post by chillacy » Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 7:01 AM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #70

zchrykng wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are fine with the majority forcing the minority to support something they don't want to support? Never going to get behind that notion myself.

The short name for that notion is "democracy".

Tyranny of the majority is considered a pitfall of democracy, or consider how to enforce "the will of the majority while protecting the rights of the minority"

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#900

Post by qtplatypus » Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 7:07 AM UTC

proc0 wrote: post #419

zpallin wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Generally speaking for well run, ethical companies, whose management actively try to do the right thing, unions add unnecessary redundancy and bureaucracy. The only type of "well run, ethical companies" where unions are redundant are worker-owned cooperatives . Otherwise, an employer, regardless of how ethical they are, can never replicate the most critical aspect of unions: collective bargaining rights . Sure, an…

Bargaining rights don't come for free. At the end of the day, unless you are the owner of the company or union leaders, you are basically serving two masters.

If I am paying the union and the union leaders are elected by me. Then the union is serving me, not the other way around.