Richard M. Stallman resigns • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#891

Post by coryfklein » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 5:52 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #773

cf141q5325 wrote: post #757

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. Which until a few years ago was completely legal in for example Switzerland. As long of course as no one is coerced into anything. Playing the Advocatus Diaboli, why should i view this outcry as anything different then the Saudis stance on sex before marriage? Fundamentalist puritan…

There isn't a situation where a 74 year old has sexual contact with a 17 year old on a billionaire's private island in which everyone is willing and happy with what is happening. It is extremely doubtful that a young woman would find herself in that situation in any other way than a long path of abuse and desperation. Taking advantage of that young woman is immoral. That isn't some puritanical, anti-sex philosophy th…

You think there doesn't exist a single mentally healthy middle-class 17 year old girl who would have sex with an elderly man for a large sum of money? That only the poor disadvantaged girls solicit sugar daddies?

This idea is counter-intuitive to me. When I was 17 my religious convictions prevented me from having sex with anyone, but I imagine that without those beliefs I would have at least put _some_ dollar figure on the price for me having sex with a 74 year old woman, and I certainly didn't have any history of abuse or desperation.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#892

Post by tonystubblebine » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 5:54 PM UTC

eloff wrote: post #736

colechristensen wrote: post #679

RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. There is not a defense for what RMS was writing or how he was trying to defend Minsky. The prevalence of comments trying to turn this against "SJW"s or whatever "other" they can because they're a fan of RMS is disturbing. This isn't us vs. them. This is a man who said something wildl…

How is it we value free speech, but there are certain discussions you just cannot have, even in a rational and measured way, without risking making yourself completely unemployable. You should be able to have a questionable viewpoint in a discussion, without worrying about the lynch mob ending your career. The consequences here are out of line. You can be reprimanded to take your discussions to a non company venue, i…

> there are certain discussions you just cannot have

The way I look at this is through responsibility. It's like what we learned in Spiderman, "With great power, comes great responsibility."

So it's not that Stallman can't have this conversation anywhere. It's that when he has it so publicly, it makes people question whether he is wielding his power well.

Sometimes responsibility means not saying anything at all. Presumably, Stallman is at MIT for computer science and free software. Why is he speaking off topic to MIT students and alum? Presumably he could develop non-MIT relationships and have whatever crazy conversations he wanted.

More often, I think the responsibility is just to do a lot more work. If you're famous and you speak off the cuff on topics that you haven't researched, then your comments get a reach that's undeserved. It's a misapplication of your fame.

I thought that about PGs most recent luggage comments. This is something that had an answer that he could look up and share with people. Or if that's too hard, he could have gotten a thorough answer privately. Seeing him be so willfully and publicly ignorant made me question whether he deserved the power that comes with fame. Laziness like that is diminishing and eventually it gets to the point where people are so diminished that they should lose their jobs and/or positions of authority.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#893

Post by dropit_sphere » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 5:56 PM UTC

Since they can't be made too visible: Stallman's actual comments: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929-091320191420...

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#894

Post by eloff » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:15 PM UTC

xorcist wrote: post #877

eloff wrote: post #736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it we value free speech, but there are certain discussions you just cannot have, even in a rational and measured way, without risking making yourself completely unemployable. You should be able to have a questionable viewpoint in a discussion, without worrying about the lynch mob ending your career. The consequences here are out of line. You can be reprimanded to take your discussions to a non company venue, i…

The use of the word attack implies force. Clearly no one has been struck physically and there is no force involved. So the idea that free speech is somehow under attack must be misguided.

Don't be overly pedantic, verbal attacks are a thing.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#895

Post by jarek-foksa » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:30 PM UTC

sbuk wrote: post #828

eloff wrote: post #736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it we value free speech, but there are certain discussions you just cannot have, even in a rational and measured way, without risking making yourself completely unemployable. You should be able to have a questionable viewpoint in a discussion, without worrying about the lynch mob ending your career. The consequences here are out of line. You can be reprimanded to take your discussions to a non company venue, i…

So what is the difference between this and the way Eich was treated for his donation to Prop 8? I'm not saying I agree with Eich - far from it. Seeing as an awful lot of people on this very thread were outraged by his behaviour, it strikes me as being contrary to be more understanding towards RMS for what is arguably far more heinous simply because they admire him more. Both Gates and Jobs are/were relentlessly and r…

Here is my conspiracy theory. It is completely hypothetical and unsourced and I really hope it is untrue, but any scenario should be considered.

Brendan Eich is a shill controlled by Google and US goverment agencies. The social media mob attack on him was actually a planned marketing campaign with aim to create an image of an independent, anti-establishment and alternative leader.

His actual goal is to create a "controlled opposition" for Google Chrome and a replacement for Tor Browser. Brave project is needed by Google in order to avoid antitrust charges from the EU when Chrome reaches ~90% market share. It will be still selling user data to Google and it will contain TOR backdoors known only to the US agencies (which will be easier to hide in proprietary browser).

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#896

Post by paggle » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:30 PM UTC

armitron wrote: post #352

paggle wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s why I mostly use pseudonymous channels these days, like this one. I treat everything I say with my real name like I’m publishing it on the front page of the New York Times and submitting three copies to the Library of Congress. Many fewer of my current associates hear any real thoughts of mine compared to 20 years ago. I used to get into all kinds of arguments like Stallman’s, on public email lists, which than…

Wait until the AIs get a little better at forensics. Might not be wise to post comments you wouldn't want to come back at you at a forum that doesn't let you delete them, pseudonymous - for now - or not.

It is something I've thought more about in recent years and have pulled back on what I say even pseudonymously.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#897

Post by spatular » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:56 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #679

RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. There is not a defense for what RMS was writing or how he was trying to defend Minsky. The prevalence of comments trying to turn this against "SJW"s or whatever "other" they can because they're a fan of RMS is disturbing. This isn't us vs. them. This is a man who said something wildl…

I don't have US cultural background and it looks insane to me, about level of witch hunts or lynch mobs. Like one accusation of peadophilia is enough to ruin a life, and lives of others that dare to voice opinions counter to that. Same thing with rape. It doesn't matter if it happened or not. Court of law? Nah, why? Clearly if they are accused then they are guilty.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#898

Post by AndrewBissell » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 6:58 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #679

RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. There is not a defense for what RMS was writing or how he was trying to defend Minsky. The prevalence of comments trying to turn this against "SJW"s or whatever "other" they can because they're a fan of RMS is disturbing. This isn't us vs. them. This is a man who said something wildl…

"When someone claims they 'didn't see anything suspicious' re: Epstein, just remember he had girls around him at all times. They are lying."

https://mobile.twitter.com/RadioVcs/status/11714435848069939...

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#899

Post by balaksakrionon » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 7:02 PM UTC

rrss wrote: post #759

craigsmansion wrote: post #722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RMS was pointing out inaccuracies in how a deceased colleague who was being accused of a heinous crime might simply have slept with a prostitute, if at all (which turns out probably wasn't the case). > This is a man who said something wildly inappropriate in an MIT forum and got fired. This is a man who said something mildly inappropriate in a forum, as is his wont. > He deserved it. A completely appropriate and reas…

> pointing out inaccuracies But, he wasn't? 1. "Minsky has been accused of assault" 2. RMS: "you shouldn't call it assault - might give people the wrong idea" 3. "It would have been literally rape in the relevant territory, 'assault' is a fine word for it" 4. RMS: "ok, even if it's legally rape, it shouldn't morally be considered rape, so don't call it assault if it was 'just' statutory rape." What inaccuracies did h…

Do you mind avoiding paraphrasing? It seems a lot of the confusion is stemming from the editorializing / paraphrasing done by the media outlets and throughout the ensuing discussions so it may be best to litigate the direct quotations to keep the discussion as fact based as possible

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#900

Post by spatular » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 7:16 PM UTC

ixtli wrote: post #717

colechristensen wrote: post #679

RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. There is not a defense for what RMS was writing or how he was trying to defend Minsky. The prevalence of comments trying to turn this against "SJW"s or whatever "other" they can because they're a fan of RMS is disturbing. This isn't us vs. them. This is a man who said something wildl…

Let's be honest, the people who disagree with your comment are worried that eventually someone will out them for their terrible behavior as well! It's shocking to me how unaccustomed to being held accountable some people are. Here's a radical supposition: it's actually good when speech has consequences in society.

Um, I'm actually worried that I or other person will be punished for something that they didn't do. In the third world country I live in you'd have to accuse someone and then bribe the judge. Turns out that in US one don't even have to bribe anyone, mob will lynch them. You just need to accuse them of right things; e.g. stealing and homicide won't do. Is that the progress that humanity has made?