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Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#891

Post by [deleted] »

kokey wrote: post #834
jernfrost wrote: post #794

I think one has to be fair about what sort of asshole Linus is. He is not like Steve Jobs, Balmer and Gates who could be vindictive and get personal. For Linus it is more about being far too blunt. But you can clearly see Linus himself being aware of it and having some humbleness about it. Jobs in contrast would never admit his bad behavior. As a fellow Nordic (Norwegian) I feel a significant component of this is sim…

I also got the impression from the way he described the situation about him not being good at reading emotions that it could be aspergers. That would be a good thing since there are many ways for him to mitigate issues around his emotional awareness, mostly by just understanding how he is different.

[deleted]

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#893

Post by BeetleB »

frant-hartm wrote: post #818
BeetleB wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it is no longer acceptable to say "this seems stupid to me" because it might hurt someone's feelings. "This seems stupid to me" is a considerably lazy statement. What's worse, it doesn't have any meaningful content beyond "I don't like it." I've yet to see anyone's feelings hurt with the following: "I'm rejecting your proposition because I believe it will lead to X, Y and Z (problems)" "Your proposal is not going to…

>Your proposal is not going to work and >I'm not seeing the benefit of this are very indirect statements in my vocabulary.

You can't get any more direct than "your proposal is not going to work". There's no ambiguity in there, and nothing left for the person to guess.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#894

Post by mattdeboard »

coffeemug wrote: post #554
mattdeboard wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, can I just ask, what do you think people are lying about when they’re being diplomatic about criticism? You said being diplomatic is a “tiny form of a white lie”, so I’m wondering who you think is being deceived, and what you think they are they being deceived about.

When you think a specific thought, feel a specific feeling, but express it in a way that really doesn't feel true to you deep in your core, you're deceiving the other person about who you are. That's how many relationships fall apart. You tell each other tiny white lies, and five years later you've discovered the lies have compounded and the relationship is too poisoned to recover. The same thing happens to cultures…

You can give honest, useful feedback without using words like "stupid."

The fact is resorting to insults and name-calling is toxic. If you can't provide constructive, honest feedback without being an asshole, you need to work on yourself.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#895

Post by floatingatoll »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #610
floatingatoll wrote: post #416

I'm known at work for being That Guy who will point out the elephant the room and discuss it face-on, but I invested decades into empathy work so that people now respect me for doing so rather than hate me. I'm glad to see Linus considering an investment in empathy, and I don't feel it will negatively impact his forthrightness long-term — the best of all possible outcomes.

Have you read the book "Crucial Conversations"? It covers exactly how to have conversations about tough topics.

Yes.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#896

Post by Sean1708 »

coffeemug wrote: post #450
grzm wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ”I'll take an asshole over a pushover any day“ This is a false dichotomy. There’s no need to be an asshole to not be a pushover.

Actually, it isn't. For example in today's environment when someone suggests something stupid, it is no longer acceptable to say "this seems stupid to me" because it might hurt someone's feelings. So instead you walk it back and say things diplomatically (which is a tiny form of a white lie). Then people reply to your diplomatic statement with another diplomatic statement, and pretty soon nobody is saying the thing t…

There is a middle ground though. Linus wasn't just direct, he was outright derogatory. If Linus stops saying (not an actual quote) "this is a stupid idea and you are a retard for suggesting it" and starts saying "this is a stupid idea" instead, then that's a massive improvement.

Edit: Of course being constructive with your criticism is even better.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#897

Post by ksec »

robaato wrote: post #863
jernfrost wrote: post #794

I think one has to be fair about what sort of asshole Linus is. He is not like Steve Jobs, Balmer and Gates who could be vindictive and get personal. For Linus it is more about being far too blunt. But you can clearly see Linus himself being aware of it and having some humbleness about it. Jobs in contrast would never admit his bad behavior. As a fellow Nordic (Norwegian) I feel a significant component of this is sim…

Have certainly experienced much more direct communication styles, e.g. in Holland, than are the norm in say UK. I remember a seminar taught by US lady in Holland where at the end of the first day she said she had never experienced so much of what she perceived as aggression. We talked it through at the beginning of the second day and put most of it down to cultural differences.

>Have certainly experienced much more direct communication styles, e.g. in Holland, than are the norm in say UK.

I would say UK are quite far on the opposite spectrum. And Cultural differences in coomunication are vastly amplify on the Internet.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#898

Post by pavel_lishin »

coffeemug wrote: post #450
grzm wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ”I'll take an asshole over a pushover any day“ This is a false dichotomy. There’s no need to be an asshole to not be a pushover.

Actually, it isn't. For example in today's environment when someone suggests something stupid, it is no longer acceptable to say "this seems stupid to me" because it might hurt someone's feelings. So instead you walk it back and say things diplomatically (which is a tiny form of a white lie). Then people reply to your diplomatic statement with another diplomatic statement, and pretty soon nobody is saying the thing t…

Congrats, you're not a pushover.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#899

Post by mattdeboard »

ggreer wrote: post #600
coffeemug wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it isn't. For example in today's environment when someone suggests something stupid, it is no longer acceptable to say "this seems stupid to me" because it might hurt someone's feelings. So instead you walk it back and say things diplomatically (which is a tiny form of a white lie). Then people reply to your diplomatic statement with another diplomatic statement, and pretty soon nobody is saying the thing t…

I totally agree with this. I actually quit my job at Red Hat because of the culture of non-criticism. I kept getting in trouble for pushing back against stupid decisions, even though I never insulted a single person. For example: When the design team added 10MB of web fonts to the app, I said something like, "Users don't care whether the font is Open Sans or Arial. They care whether things load quickly and don't re-f…

This is definitely not what coffeemug was saying though. He was complaining about all the people who don't appreciate him calling them stupid, so we has to "be more diplomatic" which he considers lying.

That is a different thing altogether from what you're saying.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#900

Post by Latty »

shard972 wrote: post #856
marmot777 wrote: post #734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said. You can tear the work apart if needed but don't get personal. Ever.

How can you produce good work if you never improve yourself? If going personal can improve someone and then improve their work, whats the argument again that we shouldn't go personal? Hurt feelings?

Yes, feelings matter.

"Going personal", as the grandparent pointed out, doesn't help anyone improve themselves. You can point out issues with someone's contribution without attacking them, and that's all they need to improve.

If someone is incapable or refuses to learn from that, then you can say that they need to before you can accept contributions from them, but attacking them personally is just unacceptable.

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