James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google • Hacker News Board

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#891

Post by Idontknowmyuser » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 3:39 PM UTC

orbat wrote: post #855

Idontknowmyuser wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate the fact that you need to state "you're a mixed race woman in tech.". I'm not blaming you, I'm blaming the outrage culture instilled in big part by a bigoted academic clique.

> bigoted academic clique Ah, everybody's a bigot but the actual bigots

mordern feminsts professors hold fringe ideas about human nature that are far too extreme to the point that it contradicts current scientific findings while also being caught using what can only be called authoritarian methods. A group that holds strong ideas, refuses to change them and uses authoritarian policies to shutdown debate is, in my opinion, bigoted. One of the most recent examples in memory is the Laurier university Case you check it out here: https://globalnews.ca/video/3867811/extended-excerpts-from-s...

more about that incident: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/wilfrid-lau...

this is the same university that gave away a pay raise based on gender: http://nationalpost.com/opinion/christie-blatchford-pay-rais... That ended up in some female professors that were hired in the same time as some male professors having a higher pay after the raise even though they were paid the same before it.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#892

Post by splintercell » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 3:39 PM UTC

koonsolo wrote: post #332

john_moscow wrote: post #87

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organization…

You must be from US. As a European, I find all these things very absurd. Like the guys with the "dongle" joke that both got fired [1], and if I remember correctly, so did the woman reporting them. Maybe you should all start by treating each other with more respect, whoever it is. And don't go witch-hunting. [1] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/how-dongle-jokes...

So you're telling me that in Europe, if a male coworker cracks a dongle joke in the presence of female coworker, and if she complains to the HR, then nothing would happen to the male coworker?

Or maybe you mean to say that in Europe all men are so sensible that nobody cracks dongle jokes in presence of female coworkers?

Or maybe that majority of the European women would not complain to the HR if someone did crack that joke because they are not stuck up?

Because lemme just make it clear, they didn't get fired for the dongle jokes, they got fired for the shitstorm which arose because of their jokes and how people on twitter were rallying to fire those guys.

Also, the woman who caused the shitstorm was also fired from her company due to the counter shitstorm which ensued.

Maybe you mean to say that in Europe, a company wouldn't fire someone if a shitstorm is created due to an employee's juvenile actions, because I am pretty sure that it is incorrect too.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#893

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 3:47 PM UTC

swingedseraph wrote: post #830

dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #757

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, she is learning it now and I wouldn't call her "useless". But her level of experience and knowledge is far below "software engineer" and if she were a guy she couldn't get away with it.

> and if she were a guy she couldn't get away with it I think this is untrue. I know a lot of male "sofware engineers" who are totally incompetent and remain well employed.

[deleted]

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#894

Post by 013a » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 3:48 PM UTC

lurr wrote: post #609

013a wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The document went through multiple layers of abstraction. Very few people actually read it. Instead, some news outfit reported on it relatively accurately, then a less scrupulous outfit wanted clicks so they sensationalize it, then a third party reads both of those articles and averages their opinion on it somewhere in the middle. Repeat. As the information becomes more popular, we get sponsored snap stories and Face…

> Very few people actually read it. You need to learn that people can have a different opinion then you, having read the same document. > Damore was fired because of the outrage, not because of the article, but the outrage was manufactured by a sensationalist click machine and information overload culture literally championed by the company he was fired from. Correct, and that's why his lawsuit is BS. He caused outra…

There is nothing in my comment to suggest I hold the opinion that everyone who has a positive opinion about what happened didn't read the document. Rather, I just stated a fact: Very few people read it, relative to the number of people who have opinions on it.

His lawsuit is not BS; you should try reading the court filing. He has multiple examples of Google HR officially condoning systemic racism and sexism. Who knows how it will come out, but he has a case.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#895

Post by lawnchair_larry » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 3:58 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #799

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #781

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which is why there won't be a settlement; it's clearly a politically motivated suit aimed to hurt Google as badly as possible; if Damore and the other individually named plaintiff were seeking to maximize the probability and magnitude of personal recompense, this would be a direct action. A settlement with no admission of guilt, no discovery, and just a go-away cash payment that’ll mostly be assigned to the attorne…

> You think a guy who got fired after a few years of work experience would rather make a company look bad than gain financial security? No, I think Damore is savvy enough to be aware of (and, given his participation in right-wing media after the memo blew up, whether or not this was in his mind in advance, has likely since been counseled by others even more aware of) the fact that his route to maximizing financial re…

Spinning a fantasy? Please.

We are both speculating, that's all.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#896

Post by maoistinquisitr » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 4:41 PM UTC

jacksmith21006 wrote: post #792

maoistinquisitr wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the heckler's veto. Free speech is a cultural matter, not just a protection from the federal and state governments.

Google is a private company. They have no obligation and having an employee that does not get along pretty obvious has to go. Why also nobody is going to hire him.

My hotel is a private company and I've found my guests and employees prefer not to interact with black people. Glad you support my right to refuse black guests.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#897

Post by 4WIW » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 4:53 PM UTC

Most of the discussion here focuses on The Famous Document which I think is missing the point. TFD could be totally right, or totally wrong but the lawsuit is about wrongful termination and discrimination and has only remote relevance to the document.

Would be interesting to hear the opinion of the people with legal experience: what are the merits of the lawsuit?

My personal unqualified opinion is that they will settle out of court for wrongful termination. Since white males are not protected class, the discrimination case is much weaker.

It is much easier for Google to settle this lawsuit than to deal with hundreds of others they would get should they kept Damore on payroll.

I think regardless of the merits of TFD this lawsuit is a good thing because companies would be less inclined to punish people for objecting groupthink.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#898

Post by zpallin » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 4:54 PM UTC

altstar wrote: post #766

zpallin wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is good information for people to reflect on this discussion. There is a lot of speculation in this thread and it's what is ultimately leading to the divisive arguing. However, I don't think Google did what you have pasted here. As far as I can tell, they fired him for violating code of conduct, which maintains that employees do not publicize discriminating memos, which he did.

He did not publish it. It was published without his consent. It was supposed to be private.

I'm not saying he did. In fact, I have already mentioned in another thread here that the leaker was wrong.

However, code of conduct at Google basically doesn't want employees marginalizing other employees. That is what Damore did.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#899

Post by zpallin » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 5:00 PM UTC

jacksmith21006 wrote: post #634

zpallin wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is the crux of the problem with his lawsuit. Political views are not a suspect class in US law afaik. What Damore may be trying to do is establish a legal understanding that the political discrimination (which definitely happened) was connected to racial discrimination (which would need to be proven in court). If Damore can do that successfully, he should be able to win the lawsuit. But I don't think it's po…

Do not think this had anything to do with social politics. It was about getting along with your co-workers.. It was external forces that tried to make it into some social political thing.

Damore's lawsuit specifically claims he was being discriminated for his conservative political opinions. In his own memo, one of his bullet-point suggestions was "Stop alienating conservatives".

This has been about "social politics" from the beginning.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#900

Post by Idontknowmyuser » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 5:01 PM UTC

elicash wrote: post #488

tomp wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's still twisting his argument. I've read an article that argued that while highly intelligent women are equally capable of doing STEM, they're _more_ capable/interested with regards to interpersonal relationships, so they're more likely to go into fields like medicine, politics, marketing etc.

Maybe a sign of issues in the field is that people hiring undervalue interpersonal skills/relationships and what it means to be "capable," which I do think is a flaw in Damore's original memo.

that was actually a point in his memo.

"Women on average show a higher interest in people and men in things ○ We can make software engineering more people-oriented with pair programming and more collaboration. Unfortunately, there may be limits to how people-oriented certain roles at Google can be and we shouldn't deceive ourselves or students into thinking otherwise (some of our programs to get female students into coding might be doing this).

● Women on average are more cooperative ○ Allow those exhibiting cooperative behavior to thrive. Recent updates to Perf may be doing this to an extent, but maybe there's more we can do. ○ This doesn't mean that we should remove all competitiveness from Google. Competitiveness and self reliance can be valuable traits and we shouldn't necessarily disadvantage those that have them, like what's been done in education."