Moving Forward on Basic Income • Hacker News Board

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#891

Post by drabiega » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 1:37 PM UTC

jeffdavis wrote: post #847

lewisl9029 wrote: post #804

The most compelling case I've seen made recently for basic income is from Yanis Varoufakis (the infamous Greek finance minister who resigned after refusing to agree to the terms of the bailout that the Greek people voted against in a referendum): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvgdtF3y0Ss There were many gems in that talk, but this one stood out to me in particular: "The right to turn down a job is essential for a w…

Let's say you have a person living in a remote area and they don't interact much with other people and they don't have a basic income. Are they free? Let's say someone lives in the city without BI, is it fair to say that moving into the wilderness is an option for them, and therefore they are free? Does it change if they started in the wilderness?

I've stated elsewhere, I don't think it is fair to say that moving into the wilderness is an option. As cheap as land is in some remote areas, it's still beyond the resources of the people for whom it would be an improvement from their current situation.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#892

Post by MicroBerto » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 1:42 PM UTC

Mahn wrote: post #667

MicroBerto wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I've found here on HN is that there is an extremely large amount of "wishful projection" and selection bias, in that many people here are young and promising entrepreneurs-in-training, and they believe that basic income will allow them to work on their startup dream without having to worry about paying the bills. While that may be true, they fail to realize that they are in the extreme minority of actually-motiv…

> if you allow the masses to do absolutely nothing while providing them the necessities for life Perhaps I'm underestimating the issue, but isn't there already today a sizeable chunk of the population in the world that does nothing or close to nothing, but still enjoys a good quality of life? Some people have the drive to work and create things, others are content with just consuming and making families; we have alwa…

> but isn't there already today a sizeable chunk of the population in the world that does nothing or close to nothing

.... and where do you see the majority of violent crimes occurring??

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#893

Post by JorgeGT » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 1:42 PM UTC

lmm wrote: post #864

JorgeGT wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Hey, I will lend you money for that new car if you give me X% of your weekly checks for Y amount of time".

You can still declare bankruptcy if that becomes onerous.

I was not talking about a legal arrangement.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#894

Post by sebastianconcpt » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 1:43 PM UTC

DonaldFisk wrote: post #867

pithic wrote: post #861

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Mafia loves to give us options that we can't refuse, to make us offers we can't refuse. Send us a fat portion of your workers' pay to fund our Utopian vision. Or else.

It doesn't have to come from income tax. It could come from unearned sources of income, such as a tax on land, or on interest.

How taxes aren't coercion?

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#895

Post by AdamN » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 1:43 PM UTC

I just hope they run this as a proper research study. The Millennium Villages weren't set up with controls and so there's very little research value to be gotten from all that effort.

Things to note:

1. Who is in and who is out is fluid. There are no well-defined communities and some people will get into the BI cohort purposefully (i.e. staying with a friend who is in the BI district or claiming to be family).

2. People move ... much more than one would think.

3. People are individuals but really, families are the core unit of society. Don't just measure individual outcomes, measure family outcomes.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#896

Post by sebastianconcpt » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 1:45 PM UTC

"Oakland is a city of great social and economic diversity, and it has both concentrated wealth and considerable inequality."

Also has great economic liberty if compared to the rest of the world which makes it particularly fertile territory.

Try this in a socialist paradise like Cuba or Venezuela and when you compare the outcome you'll see what I mean.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#897

Post by saiya-jin » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 1:46 PM UTC

jmngomes wrote: post #868

DonaldFisk wrote: post #867

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't have to come from income tax. It could come from unearned sources of income, such as a tax on land, or on interest.

Or by reducing the financial excess/waste that goes to corruption, tax avoidance or rent-seeking companies (many of who oppose the very idea of a basic income).

... and now we jumped straight to utopia. imagining that ending corruption just like that to support this thingie... I wish to take BI seriously, but then the whole topic needs to be serious, and not start with these childish statements and assumptions.

All the simulations/proposition in Switzerland are heavily relying on increased taxation of work force. All spending saved on cutting of existing social systems is far from being enough to finance it.

Almost nobody is strictly against ideas of BI. What all opponents have against is the high potential for catastrophic failure once it hits reality. Like all other utopistic ideas that started with good intentions. or anybody considers communism a success?

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#898

Post by DonaldFisk » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 1:51 PM UTC

sebastianconcpt wrote: post #894

DonaldFisk wrote: post #867

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't have to come from income tax. It could come from unearned sources of income, such as a tax on land, or on interest.

How taxes aren't coercion?

Because if you don't like paying them, you don't have to. You can emigrate instead or, in the case of land taxes, sell your land.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#899

Post by lisper » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 1:57 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #886

lewisl9029 wrote: post #804

The most compelling case I've seen made recently for basic income is from Yanis Varoufakis (the infamous Greek finance minister who resigned after refusing to agree to the terms of the bailout that the Greek people voted against in a referendum): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvgdtF3y0Ss There were many gems in that talk, but this one stood out to me in particular: "The right to turn down a job is essential for a w…

What a foolish analogy. The Mafia uses violence to force people to "agree" to things. If one "can't say no" to a contract because their pre-contract situation sucks and will be improved by adopting the contract, they have suffered no violence.

What difference does it make if the threat is actual violence or leaving you without an income so you end up on the street? What matters is not the particulars of the unpleasantness that awaits you if you don't accept the mafia's/corporation's offer, but the fact that the unpleasantness is a consequence of a situation that the mafia/corporation have themselves created.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#900

Post by saiya-jin » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 1:59 PM UTC

if whole world would work on this BI, you would buy a coffee or two for it, nothing more. every single item we purchase and consume every day would be massively more expensive. there is a reason why all the stuff is made in china.

or you want BI just for yourself, your circle or your country?

once, in star-trekish future, this might be the best choice. in current world, it just doesn't make sense apart from nice intellectual exercise on what-if topic. what about we focus all this energy and money into directly fixing things like preventing wars, education, health care for aging population etc? or are these topics not cool anymore?