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The PyCon Incident

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#881

Post by benmanns »

obstacle1 wrote: post #574
revelation wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understood correctly, Adria is not another employee, but has the role of developer evangelist. In that role, your twitter account is very much an extension of your job.

In that light, I do not understand how this woman is still employed. https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/6039856858 Who exactly is she "evangelizing" for? All developers? I find that really hard to believe given her extremely public politics.

This tweet is from November 2009 - over 3 years ago. Adria didn't start working as an 'evangelist' for SendGrid until March of 2012.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#882

Post by king_jester »

heili wrote: post #860
groby_b wrote: post #747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I happen to be the woman who actually enjoys hanging out with her current colleagues - who all strangely managed to grow up past puberty.

I would treat you professionally and avoid making any references to anything more controversial than toast in your presence. But I also wouldn't invite you to any outside of work social activities either, because you sound like a buzzkill.

> But I also wouldn't invite you to any outside of work social activities either, because you sound like a buzzkill.

This is actually one of the problems with folks being able to speak up in an office environment to challenge sexist or racist "jokes". Very often said humor isn't even humor and is used by a privileged group to disparage another. If someone calls that out, they can face social exclusion from their colleges, esp. if those colleges don't think that racism or sexism is a big deal. In such a situation, the person who feels uncomfortable can say nothing and continue to be a part of the group or they can say something and suddenly find themselves on the outside of the group, which for work has big consequences like losing access to resources needed to do your job, being passed up for promotion, etc.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#883

Post by takluyver »

wpietri wrote: post #704
takluyver wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The employer certainly bears some responsibility. But it also seems that Adria could have handled this better. Taking pictures of people without their consent is against the PyCon code of conduct, and it also advises against public shaming.

Could you show the bit where taking photos is against the CoC?

Apologies, I should have checked that claim rather than repeating what other people had said. The actual wording is that "Harassment includes... harassing photography or recording". That's somewhat less clear, though the warning about public shaming is still relevant.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#884

Post by heili »

king_jester wrote: post #882
heili wrote: post #860

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would treat you professionally and avoid making any references to anything more controversial than toast in your presence. But I also wouldn't invite you to any outside of work social activities either, because you sound like a buzzkill.

> But I also wouldn't invite you to any outside of work social activities either, because you sound like a buzzkill. This is actually one of the problems with folks being able to speak up in an office environment to challenge sexist or racist "jokes". Very often said humor isn't even humor and is used by a privileged group to disparage another. If someone calls that out, they can face social exclusion from their coll…

That's just too fucking bad, innit?

I'm not about to apologize for the fact that I don't invite people into my circle of friends if I'm going to have to constantly be on guard to watch what I say around them in case some dick or fart joke offends them and they go running to HR to tattle on me.

I don't much care if that hypersensitive whinypants is male, female, or self identifying as a tree squirrel - I'm not going to spend every waking minute that I'm around other human beings moderating my every word like I'm on goddamn Sesame Street. If that wet-blanket who can't have fun doesn't get promoted because nobody actually likes being around them enough to want to spend 10 or more hours a day with them, it's not my problem and I'm not going to hold their hand and wipe their tears. They need to grow a thicker skin or learn to enjoy life outside the fold.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#885

Post by pyre » 

  | Instead she cowardly chose to not engage
  | them directly
So... If someone is too intimidated for direct confrontation, their voice is not welcome / allowed to be heard?

1. Contacting the conference officials is a valid action to take.

2. Turning the incident into a blog post is ok too. It sparks public discussion.

3. Posting pictures and names is not. Especially since this seems to be a 'straw the broke the camel's back' situation, and I doubt that these same guys were the ones that offended her all of the other times. They get to take the full force of her fury that built up over (possibly) several incidents. That's not entirely fair. Even more so because she was just a by-stander to a conversation that was intended to be private.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#886

Post by ebbv »

On the plus side if the guy's employer would fire him over such a stupid incident he's probably better off working somewhere else. Hopefully some other employer steps up and gives him a job.

My tweet on this issue:

Remember kids; if you overhear someone saying something you don't like, the rational response is to attempt to ruin their lives.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#887

Post by Joeboy »

jasonlotito wrote: post #866
Joeboy wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I am really puzzled as to why these "jokes" are supposed to be offensive to women. They might be offensive to people raised in some cultures / subcultures, and they don't sound like they're great jokes in any culture, but nobody ever told me about the meeting where women decided knob jokes were offensive. In fact a female friend texted me one about an hour ago.

In a professional setting, you should apply the "would I tell this joke to my mother" rule. It might not be your mother, but someone else, like your grand parent or a situation where lewd jokes are inappropriate, like a job interview or a new client. > In fact a female friend texted me one about an hour ago. A friend. Being female has nothing to do with it.

> A friend. Being female has nothing to do with it.

Yes, that's kind of my point. Some people obviously have a problem with these kinds of jokes, some people don't. It's a cultural thing.

This morning on Facebook, a friend posted a picture of the cover of "Cockhandler" magazine, a supposed magazine about chicken farming (as it happens, it's fake). This has so far been "liked" by six women and two men. I don't know all the women, but the three I do know are pretty hardcore feminists.

I just don't think women as a whole are bothered. For the ones who are, I don't think it's particularly because they're women.

I agree with you about sensible public conduct, in the same way that I think it's good to be aware that some cultures have taboos about eg. displaying the soles of your feet. If you think you might be among such people, it's a good idea to avoid doing that, even if it seems kind of weird.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#888

Post by [deleted] »

crucialfelix wrote: post #873
Joeboy wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I am really puzzled as to why these "jokes" are supposed to be offensive to women. They might be offensive to people raised in some cultures / subcultures, and they don't sound like they're great jokes in any culture, but nobody ever told me about the meeting where women decided knob jokes were offensive. In fact a female friend texted me one about an hour ago.

The interesting thing here is that the joke wasn't really: dongle as childish sexual innuendo. What they found funny is that they were sitting at pycon making an obviously childish joke. It's only funny because its so obviously stupid. It's a signifier between two friends that they are relaxed enough to make retarded jokes. So they weren't being childish, it's normal behavior for sophisticated people to occasionally…

[deleted]

Re: The PyCon Incident

#889

Post by euccastro »

mcherm wrote: post #865
georgeorwell wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is indecent is that Adria Richards completely invented the bit about forking being a sexual reference ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 ), escalated her discomfort to the level of internet drama, got her employer SendGrid to support her, and didn't exactly go out of her way to petition PlayHaven to unfire one of the two guys involved. And she's now sticking to her guns even after profusive apologies…

You write: > All she had to do was turn around and ask the guys to stop making sex jokes. But I think one of the important points here is that women should not NEED to turn around and ask the guys to stop making sex jokes. The need to ask (or resign oneself to putting up with the hostile environment) is itself a burden. Would it be acceptable to make "dumb nigger" jokes as long as anytime an African American asks you…

Sex jokes are not hate speech.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#890

Post by ebbv »

danilocampos wrote: post #22

Couple pieces to this. First – the fact that this guy's employer made a kneejerk reaction is no one's fault but the employer. Next – let's talk about this red herring of "sexism." Making a phallus joke might be sexist depending on context. Or it might not be. Sexism is not at issue here. The individual in question concedes that they did, in fact, make the joke. From PyCon's code of conduct: "All communication should…

Yes his employer did make a bad decision, but it was prompted by Adria's bad decision. They both need to apologize.

Part of being an adult is not flipping out every time you overhear someone else say something you don't like. And yes I would qualify snapping someone's picture and posting it on Twitter to launch a smear campaign against them as "flipping out".

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