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AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

blog.florianherrengt.com

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Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#881

Post by nixon_why69 »

elmer2 wrote: post #879
nixon_why69 wrote: post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but consider if we had professionalized in, say, the late 90s. Would we be insisting everyone writes bad 90s style OO code because that's the professional standard? How do you have standards when the field is still figuring itself out?

It also changes every year or two. Plumbing, for instance, hasn't changed much in decades.

Have we solidified a little, though? I don't want to overindex on my particular biases given my particular age, but I feel like we ironed out the problems with object-oriented programming and reached a rough consensus about a functional/object-oriented hybrid where nobody likes too much inheritance.

Are we at a stable spot now or am I just overindexing on my personal understanding?

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#882

Post by jjmarr »

roenxi wrote: post #819
breezybottom wrote: post #695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Milton Friedman was a libertarian crank. I'm a consumer and I'm quite happy that doctors and lawyers are licensed.

You can also buy from companies that hire licensed software engineers if you want to? The main thing that would stop people patronising licensed individuals is if there was no obvious skill gap between a licensed and unlicensed practitioner that justifies the price gap. People don't need a government body to tell them to check for credentials. If people care they can ask (I had to give a copy of my degree certificate…

I'm getting work experience to become a licensed software engineer, which is possible in my jurisdiction (Ontario).

Rarely does anybody care. I heard it's useful for safety-critical stuff but have never met anyone who has made use of the designation.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#883

Post by thr0w »

overgard wrote: post #375
Syntaf wrote: post #35

> bad engineers were always a liability This part of the article hits home for me. With AI, "bad" engineers can now amplify their "bad" engineering x10 across the organization. The most egregious of these cases for me is often long tenured engineers who have lost interest in the craft, creating a dangerous combination of having enough merit to ship but not enough interest to make what they ship _good_. I am still a f…

I kind of think the whole "Learn to Code" push of the 2010s was one of the worst things that happened to our industry. Call me a gatekeeper if you want but, we ended up with a lot of people that just can't do the job. The problem is our industry mostly doesn't have any sort of reasonable mentorship or apprenticeship culture, so we've always left it to the engineers to teach themselves. Sink or swim. The problem is th…

> Call me a gatekeeper if you want but, we ended up with a lot of people that just can't do the job.

The vast majority! I think I've come across 1 or 2 competent engineers in 20+ years. It's a miracle that software works, ever. Increasingly, it doesn't.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#884

Post by ElProlactin »

Terr_ wrote: post #788
ElProlactin wrote: post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can have a regime that regulates who can practice medicine and law without having it run through private organizations that function like a cartel.

It's a little more-complicated in that one of the major bottlenecks comes not from the private organizations per se , but from Congress--though I wouldn't want to underestimate the effect of lobbying. > In the Balanced Budget Act of 1997, Congress capped the number of residency positions that Medicare would fund at each teaching hospital at 1996 levels. https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/5550556-residency-cap...

Yes, and the AMA, along with other associations, supported the cap, issuing a statement that claimed "compelling evidence that the United States is on the verge of a serious oversupply of physicians."

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#885

Post by esseph »

nixon_why69 wrote: post #881
elmer2 wrote: post #879

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also changes every year or two. Plumbing, for instance, hasn't changed much in decades.

Have we solidified a little, though? I don't want to overindex on my particular biases given my particular age, but I feel like we ironed out the problems with object-oriented programming and reached a rough consensus about a functional/object-oriented hybrid where nobody likes too much inheritance. Are we at a stable spot now or am I just overindexing on my personal understanding?

> I feel like we ironed out the problems with object-oriented programming and reached a rough consensus about a functional/object-oriented hybrid where nobody likes too much inheritance.

Python and NodeJS are some of your most popular tools and newborn programmers just started checks watch today and don't know what OOP is. They can write hello world if they download 500MB of packages first. Good luck.

Oh look, a new electron app!

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#886

Post by thr0w »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #414
overgard wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of think the whole "Learn to Code" push of the 2010s was one of the worst things that happened to our industry. Call me a gatekeeper if you want but, we ended up with a lot of people that just can't do the job. The problem is our industry mostly doesn't have any sort of reasonable mentorship or apprenticeship culture, so we've always left it to the engineers to teach themselves. Sink or swim. The problem is th…

The whole "learn to code" and software bootcamp craze always baffled me. Like what other profession markets themselves as "Hey, our job is so easy that any schmuck off the street can enter the career with 4 months of training." Practically every other job I can think of at a similar salary level has entrance requirements (e.g. grad school admissions exams), extensive and expensive training, a lengthy apprenticeship p…

> And more directly, I believe good software engineering is really hard.

It really is, if there's one sentiment that's remained consistent in me over time it's awe at how harsh of a mistress software is. As good as coding agents are, it still routinely dismantles them in astonishing ways. It's like complexity is the natural state to which all systems want to settle.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#887

Post by esseph »

WalterBright wrote: post #538
bdangubic wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Such test filter out the obvious frauds. if you need garbage like leetcode to filter out "obvious frauds" you got a whole lot of problems in your company/team/...

A colleague of mine came to me for advice. He wanted one of those high dollar jobs at a well-known MegaCorp. He knew a leetcode test was used by them. I suggested that his top priority was to study the leetcode books for the next 3 weeks. I told him those three weeks would be the best ROI he'd ever make. He did so. He aced the test. He got the job with a huge offer. He agreed that the ROI was out of the park! P.S. I'…

> P.S. I'm curious what your test is for obvious frauds?

I interview them and ask questions! Seems good so far.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#888

Post by esseph »

WalterBright wrote: post #746
zzrrt wrote: post #741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the point we all see, but from context, the story teller apparently thought it shows that leetcode is an effective way to filter frauds.

And it is an effective way.

It's memorization, not understanding. It is not effective.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#889

Post by esseph »

WalterBright wrote: post #748
selcuka wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused. Your example contradicts your point. How is it a good filter for fraud if it can be aced by only studying for 3 weeks?

The frauds and incompetents don't want to do the work.

No but they want the money, so they'll do the bare minimum to get in that door.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#890

Post by ElProlactin »

dijit wrote: post #843
ElProlactin wrote: post #755

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is whether you then want there to be a legal licensing requirement that requires an individual to hold certification to work as a software developer.

Maybe treat it like other professions and have a specific title be protected?

But in this case the title is irrelevant. The purpose of licensing is to define who is allowed to offer their services and actually practice.

If I can build you a web application as a "web developer" but not "software engineer", you haven't accomplished anything by restricting a title. It's basically certification, similar to the Project Management Professional (PMP) title, which you can only use if you've achieved PMB certification. But people without this certification can still work in project management roles.

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