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Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

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Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#881

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The processes for delivering remedial classes no longer work at the scale required. UC San Diego published a detailed report of what's happening at their campus ( https://senate.ucsd.edu/media/740347/sawg-report-on-admissio... ): their remedial math placement grew from 32 students in 2020 to 921 students in 2025, 665 of whom placed into an extra-remedial course covering grade 1-8 math which had not previously been ne…

The system is working as designed. If they don’t want to provide remedial then they need some pre-admission test to weed them out. The students can try again later after maturing more or taking community college classes.

If only there was a national standardized test that assessed whether students are prepared for college or not.

Oh, wait

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#882
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professors who fail large swathes of their classes get in trouble.

This is why universities have offered what amount to remedial math classes for donkey's years. Even in the early 2000's, if you showed up to Calculus I without sufficient preparation, you'd find yourself bounced to Pre-Calculus by the end of the week.

Sure, but it used to be only a small fraction of students, not nearly half the entering class

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#883
post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the scores at the top are way too bunched. A perfect score should indicate generational genius, not the 100th smartest kid your year in California.

That's not a real problem for UC admissions. They accept thousands of students every year. Anyone who scores near perfect (within the margin of error) should be admitted to at least one UC campus. If that's not happening then the problem is with the admissions criteria, not with the SAT.

> Anyone who scores near perfect (within the margin of error) should be admitted to at least one UC campus

You really don't see a problem with that? Our best students should not be "admitted to at least one UC campus". They should have their pick of the UCs and should be getting generous scholarships to entice them. There is absolutely loads of bunching near the top the distribution which makes it impossible for actually-top students to differentiate themselves.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#884

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the scores at the top are way too bunched. A perfect score should indicate generational genius, not the 100th smartest kid your year in California.

There's about 500k kids in California each year. The 100th smartest is undoubtedly smarter than you or me.

Probably. And they deserve to be able to prove it in a way that the current tests do not allow due to their low ceiling.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#885
post #791

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad one of my old profs in the Netherlands refused to bend and was fine with arguing his 40 percent first pass numbers (the target was 60 for some reason, hint: money). If everyone is exceptional, nobody is.

The point is that Harvard kids are all more or less exceptional. Harvard and other Ivy Leagues attract the best students in the world, not only mostly local talent like European schools. European universities are most similar to state school systems in many regards.

you misspelled wealthy

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#886

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They passed AB705 and AB1705 to prevent a community college from putting someone in a remedial classes unless it had very strong evidence they wouldn't be able to pass a regular (transfer-level) class. Why? Did someone make students graduating from high schools who go on to need remedial courses into some kind of metric for the high schools, and the politicians are trying to "solve" the schools' low scores on this…

> Why? While it seems obvious that some students should be redirected to remedial classes, the evidence is that very few students made it past those courses. IOW, the obvious solution wasn't working. Being an engineer, my instinct would be to fix those classes so that they did work. However, legislators think at a different level and reasoned that the remedial classes constituted a false promise that costs students d…

I have been really puzzled by this situation and haven't been able to stop thinking about it since last night. I spent a long time chatting with an LLM and reading articles published by community college instructors and university faculty in California, and looking for examples in other states, the research (in California and other contexts) that examine the related problems with remedial courses.

I've learned a lot, but the one example I want to raise is one I learned about how some other community colleges have addressed the same problem. In some states that where the solution wasn't mandated or constrained by legislation, schools replaced their conventional placement test and remedial courses track with repeatable, low-stakes testing. When you fail the test, it points out where you were weak and directs you to study material, and then you can study only the parts you struggled with and retake it as soon as you want, as many times as you want, for free. If you fail repeatedly you're offered a kind of integrated online course that is self-paced rather than a fixed semester length and has a really favorable class size (15 students, 2 instructors). It's sold as a service community colleges can buy into, and I really know nothing about it, so I don't want to name the vendor. I don't know if their particular tests are actually good, of if their streamlined course recapitulate any of the failings of conventional remedial courses.

But the general outline seems... pretty good, right? It isn't expensive for the students, it isn't a lengthy detour, and it doesn't work by lowering standards or potentially fraudulently promoting unprepared students (which I imagine adjunct professors at community colleges are systemically pressured to do at institutions where administrators care about their pass rates).

I'm not sure if "Come back as soon as you're ready, here's where you struggled, here's where to get extra support if you need it, all of this is free" should be considered fixing the remedial courses or bypassing them, but it seems doable and like it addresses the time, money, and stigmatization/discouragement problems with old-school remedial tracks.

Anyway I hope California can get more creative here and try to get serious about measuring success (i.e., actually do more testing of learning outcomes when they make changes like this, instead of just looking at course completion rates). It seems like a solvable problem.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#887

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think because if their graduation requires them to pass that course (and it's a freshman-level course), the university is basically facing a choice of, "teach them this thing", "change graduation requirements", or "either kick the kids out or willfully let them waste 4 years just to not be able to graduate". Both the latter 2 are big choices for a university administration to make, so it's much easier to ask the pr…

tl;dr: remedial classes are good and some schools are good at them. Admissions question aside, it's not a bad idea to get good at them. I attended community college in my hometown, as well as a university elsewhere, and eventually completed my undergraduate education. While I attended the community college, which openly advertises that it has no admissions requirements at all, I also worked there as a tutor in math.…

To be clear, I never endorsed any of these routes. They're all bandaids that try to make up for the intentional defunding and prisonification of our public school system.

We can't solve the intentional sabotage of our educational system by keeping kids in it for longer via remedial classes, which are supposed to be focused on kids who have personal barriers to learning, not systemically-imposed ones.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#888
post #879
post #802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good education, where one is imbued with motivation to learn and develop knowledge. That's not evenly distributed. Anybody can learn math.

Great, I'll get on the phone to the local special school and let them know their non-verbal autistic students with IQs in the 50 to 60 range are to be enrolled in manifold theory next semester, and if they can't do it then badosu says it's all their fault because anybody can learn maths.

You are being disingenuous. Of course people with disabilities or severely deficient in cognition have innate difficulties that might hamper or completely preclude the development of mathematical skills.

The main point is that the educational environment most people have to deal with: public school in most countries, focused on rote memorization of formulas for passing tests, is the main factor on the incredibly inefficient and adversarial perception of most students and adults.

If you are able to understand something as "basic" as higher order effects in economics and societies, accrued from an understanding of rates of change from calculus, you are of course extremely privileged. On the other hand you are not some gifted unicorn with a special brain, you are just lucky (exceptions exist, but even they have to be somewhat lucky).

[Edit: grammar, ambiguity]

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#889
post #122
post #28

I used to teach high school math. There was a big push for doing everything digitally. And admittedly, for some topics the use of technology in the classroom or at home can really be a benefit, for instance visualizations or interactive exercises. But having a digital device in class was the number one cause of distraction every time. For a lot of things, good old blackboards are just fine as are pen + paper exercise…

They got rid of paper because teachers are lazy and do not want to spend time grading things by hand. I’ve spoken to the head of curriculum at a school asking why when given the choice of paper or digital format of a math exam, they picked the digital. I specifically mentioned it’d be inferior as students would not be able to draw atop geometry problems or cross out numbers when simplifying expressions. The response…

Doesn't Scantron already solve that problem?

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#890
post #816

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I studied engineering in Sweden. One of our courses had an 80% failure rate. A world of difference from Harvard where the average grade is A.

This is not a good comparison. All the students at Harvard are all selected from the tail end of the distribution and are very capable. The students at Scandinavian universities are selected to a degree, but represent a far broader range of the distribution and correspondingly there's a broader range of exam results. Of course, other things are at play here (there is grade inflation at Harvard, the schools obviously…

No, I was in the highest ranked and most selective program in the country. Harvard is a diploma mill, it's that simple.
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