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Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

nytimes.com

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Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#881

Post by s1artibartfast »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #847
machomaster wrote: post #768

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WNBA is being sponsored by men's NBA and they would not have survived without. The merr existence is not an evidence of success. Kids' little leagues also exist, but can't be compared, with actual professional men's sports. Where is women's American football? Women's baseball? Crickets... Women's icehockey is in such a state, that there are only 2 decent countries dominating everybody, and they would get destroyed by…

The world's best female ultradistance runners, rock climbers (particuarly sport and bouldering, but lead also), ultradistance swimmers, are all on a par with their male counterparts and occasionally better. Since I personally don't have any interest in team sports of any type, I have nothing to say about your observations, though I will continue to wear my "I'm here for the women's race" t-shirt whenever I can.

> I have nothing to say about your observations, though I will continue to wear my "I'm here for the women's race" t-shirt whenever I can.

Yet you would hapilly abolish them and think the world a better place? Im genuinely confused.

Would you wear a "division 2" or "slow bracket" shirt with similar gusto?

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#882

Post by AlecSchueler »

0xy wrote: post #832
AlecSchueler wrote: post #761

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There might be more “biological advantage” nuance with people just starting their transition, There might also be a similar advantage for AFAB women who have unusually higher testosterone. I don't get why they don't just do hormone brackets like they do with weight in boxing, and do away with gender based divisions entirely.

This is completely misinformed. Biological women and biological men at identical testosterone levels do not have the same grip strength or endurance attributes, because their bodies are fundamentally different particularly in bone size and muscular composition. The average MTF and the average female have wildly different hand sizes, among many other physical differences.

How many "average women" are competing at the Olympics?

> particularly in bone size and muscular composition.

So group them by that where it's relevant. That doesn't change the fundamental argument I was making.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#883

Post by ragall »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #877
ragall wrote: post #848

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not a sex characteristic, it's a gender characteristic. They're one and the same. > But denying the idea that humans have both characteristics derived from biology (sex) and from societal expectations (gender) is simply objectively incorrect. I don't deny the existence of social expectations (you severely misread what I wrote), but those expectations were deriving from the recognition of the objective truth of…

What does "being the same" mean to you. A thought or expectation is not a chromosome. Gender having been derived from real sex historically and even predominantly today does not stop some people from redefining it otherwise.

Things that are dependent on each other are, essentially, the same thing.

People can try to redefine whatever they please as long as the rest of society can point out the silliness of it.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#884

Post by asdff »

crote wrote: post #751
asdff wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still have your larger bone structure. Larger musculature structure and different muscle insertions. different ligament structure. different skin structure. different grip strength. Broader shoulders, narrower pelvis, different angled limbs. all of that isn't going away even if it atrophies. And you aren't going to let it atrophy because you are an athlete in training managing your dietary macros. Maybe recovery…

> You still have your larger bone structure. Starting out with this: are you proposing a height limit on female athletes? If having a larger bone structure is an unfair advantage, surely tall women should be banned from competing?

It comes down to where we draw the line. We limit healthy women from competing in paraplegic games for example, because of inherent advantages.

In certain sports, height might not be formally regulated, but weight classes are regulated. And in those sports it is arguably an advantage to be shorter, as you can be bulkier overall and dedicate more of the limited weight to pure muscle mass vs your skeleton. Although there are also considerations for things such as reach in some circumstances.

Overall though, the difference between a slightly taller athlete of a given sex is nowhere near the athletic prowess differences between a given athlete of the same height and of different sex. A 5' Lebron James would still dominate a 7' Caitlin Clark. Maybe there would be height classes just like there are weight classes and sex classes, if height were such an influencing factor.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#885

Post by [deleted] »

blks wrote: post #865
walthamstow wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trans panic is doubly popular on the right because it's a wedge issue within the left, it divided modern feminism into two camps

You sure about that? I rarely see any debate on the left about trans rights, but I see various right wing politicians and media constantly beat the drums about trans people - bathrooms, sports, claiming them all to be pedophiles, “transinvestigating” various celebrities or figures. Current US executive branch made a few directed hits against trans people, for example creating a bunch of problems with passports. Trans…

[deleted]

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#886

Post by walthamstow »

blks wrote: post #865
walthamstow wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trans panic is doubly popular on the right because it's a wedge issue within the left, it divided modern feminism into two camps

You sure about that? I rarely see any debate on the left about trans rights, but I see various right wing politicians and media constantly beat the drums about trans people - bathrooms, sports, claiming them all to be pedophiles, “transinvestigating” various celebrities or figures. Current US executive branch made a few directed hits against trans people, for example creating a bunch of problems with passports. Trans…

> Trans panic is doubly popular on the right

That's what I said. I'm not sure what you read.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#887

Post by ZeroGravitas »

michaelt wrote: post #513
callistocodes wrote: post #334

My two cents as a transfem athlete: The attention this topic receives is disproportionate considering how rare we are, especially close to the Olympics level. Most of us do sports for fun/friends and don’t care how they rank us, but would be sad to be banned. There might be more “biological advantage” nuance with people just starting their transition, but by this many years in it feels silly. I registered as a man fo…

Competitive sport is unusual in that the whole thing is, in a sense, a search for outliers. Finding very rightmost person on the histogram of running speed or swimming ability or weightlifting strength. The very, very rare. The 7ft 6in guys. Then we put them on a podium, hand them a medal, and wrap them in a flag. In most other fields, outliers average out. The new subdivision of houses gets framed at the speed of th…

And those outliers are much more likely to be women born with Differences in Sex Development than trans. Like over 100x more likely.

They're rare in everyday life, but this process selects for them.

And then they get attacked and misrepresented by people who claim they are protecting women.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#888

Post by zahlman »

crote wrote: post #756
zahlman wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Leave aside the fact that very few of us here have actually tested our 23rd chromosome. When people do submit to such testing, how commonly are the results other than they expected?

More often than you'd think! You can easily go your entire life without knowing. It is not uncommon for the first hint to be that a couple is having trouble conceiving.

> More often than you'd think!

Perhaps not, given the selection effect.

> You can easily go your entire life without knowing.

Sure, since we already established that the tests are usually not done at all.

An overwhelming majority of people (at least among those who have a basic understanding of the underlying science) could, however, guess correctly about themselves.

The combined prevalence of all intersex conditions is simply not that high.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#889

Post by s1artibartfast »

ragall wrote: post #883
s1artibartfast wrote: post #877

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "being the same" mean to you. A thought or expectation is not a chromosome. Gender having been derived from real sex historically and even predominantly today does not stop some people from redefining it otherwise.

Things that are dependent on each other are, essentially, the same thing. People can try to redefine whatever they please as long as the rest of society can point out the silliness of it.

So you dont think actions and signals can mean different things to different people?

A dress or lipstick might mean there is also a vagina to one person, but not another person.

This is a testable prediction. One where the correct answer depends on what people are actually doing.

If you think a dress means vaginas and people stop doing that, you simply become wrong.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#890

Post by kelseyfrog »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #881
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #847

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world's best female ultradistance runners, rock climbers (particuarly sport and bouldering, but lead also), ultradistance swimmers, are all on a par with their male counterparts and occasionally better. Since I personally don't have any interest in team sports of any type, I have nothing to say about your observations, though I will continue to wear my "I'm here for the women's race" t-shirt whenever I can.

> I have nothing to say about your observations, though I will continue to wear my "I'm here for the women's race" t-shirt whenever I can. Yet you would hapilly abolish them and think the world a better place? Im genuinely confused. Would you wear a "division 2" or "slow bracket" shirt with similar gusto?

Why would you name it "division 2"? If you're going to test for SRY as the way to assign participants, then you should name the divisions "SRY-pos" and "SRY-neg". At least that would be correct.
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