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Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

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Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#881
post #559
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why did we let mobile go down the one-app-per-website path? Because the web is still barely usable for anything more complex than showing a few lines of static text and an image? Because for almost as long as (modern) mobile apps exist the web was even less usable? Because even now you can whip up a fast complex mobile app with 60fps animations and native behaviours probably in minutes? While on the web you're luck…

I might be in the minority but I have a really hard time using iOS and their apps in general (I use Android). I struggle (and mostly curse) to figure out what swipe gesture to use to get simple stuff to just work. Not super sure all the 60fps animations and wizz-bang behaviours are being used the way you think they are. #include

Android isn't web either, and you're fine with using it. It's only familiarity.

I have the same issues doing anything on Android.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#882
post #876

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until a court order stopped them, Apple was collecting a 27% tax on certain external payments even though they didn't control the payment rails. They required developers to report their external payment revenue and sent them invoices. Developers had to commit to that or their apps would be rejected for having external payments.

It's at least "reasonable" that if the app was where users derived usage, and would've purchased thru the app but for the external purchasing option, then apple has a case for it. However, there's no such case for web (as in, web _only_).

If usage of an app gives Apple some justification for taxing payments, by similar logic would usage of the iPhone itself, and Safari, give them a similar some justification?

"The user would have used our payment rails had there not been other options" seems to apply universally; Apple could say the same thing about website owners steering users away from some expensive "Apple web pay" option.

I think the difference is just leverage. Apple isn't curating what websites iOS users are allowed to visit (yet...), so they can't tell website owners "pay up or we'll block you".

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#883
Why can't Patreon hike up prices in their iPhone app?

It would not only shift the cost to the user, it makes them cover the 30%, while discouraging the use of the iPhone app itself.

They could add a banner before the payment is processed that says "you could be paying less for the same benefit to the patron if you pay from our website. The price is higher here because of Apple, and you're covering the fee."

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#884
post #806

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I run GrapheneOS, but I can't use the national digital identity app because it requires Google Play Integrity. I very much cannot do what I want without it having severe consequences because the duopoly is starting to shape the basic digital infrastructure, and critical services start requiring that I use one of the two ecosystems. I think the principle of digital autonomy should be front and center. Surely we can fi…

Working adjacent to such digital identity app development, they are unfortunately regulated to require such device integrity approaches. If Google Play Integrity didn't exist, the app would only be certified to run on e.g. unrooted Samsung Knox devices.

Yes, but the regulation is wrong, since it is based on an irrational security analysis and cover-my-ass politics which belong in private companies and not in government institutions which are supposed to protect the freedoms of the citizens.

The technical security requirements should not be hard to define, i.e. the platform on which the solution runs should require all keys to be device-bound with a certificate chain from the hardware manufacturer proving this to the issuers during enrollment. The operating system should also be able to verify to the issuer that the hash of the app is recognized as an official app.

However, the strongest integrity level of solutions like Play Integrity - which is the only level that GrapheneOS cannot pass, and which only my national identity app requires - is protecting against very theoretical attacks which I don't believe actually happen in the real world, since it not only protects against fake malicious identity apps, but also against the scenario where a scammer has convinced their target of installing a custom Android operating system which fakes the app integrity verification. This attack requires a victim with a technical aptitude that allows them to unlock the bootloader and use adb, but which is at the same time gullible enough to believe the attacker. It also requires that the attacker builds a malicious Android release for the exact hardware of the victim. Seriously, if the victim is this easy to manipulate and also this resourceful, then the attacker should just convince them to disable biometrics and send the phone to the attacker by mail.

It is very very clever of Google to disguise what is essentially voluntary vendor lock-in as a security feature.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#885

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that Apple owns the platform and half of the mobile ecosystem. You can't just launch a competitive marketplace which could compete alongside Apple's app store, nor can you launch an alternative operating system. You have to launch a whole new smartphone stack complete with operating system, app distribution and app ecosystem.

Or not use apple.

I also don't use Apple, and I try to avoid the only other alternative by using GrapheneOS instead of an official Android build.

But at some point everything is going to be so closely tied to Google as well that that way of living is also going to become too painful, and at that point "or not use Apple or Google" is a bit like saying "or not use the roads".

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#886

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With freedom also comes responsibility, and some innocent people will inevitably shoot themselves in the foot. This is not a strong enough argument for putting everybody else in a cage and letting a duopoly take over virtually all of the distribution of consumer software.

Well, you have to balance it with how much you want to line the coffers of malicious actors. If you go all the way to "everyone should have the freedom to get pwned", then you are also funneling the money of innocents into the pockets of some of the worst people in the world, and that's not a great outcome just to make life more convient for some HNers. The question is about what trade-off makes sense for most people…

You can make the default locked down and still allow other operating systems, and most alternative operating systems will also come with a suitably strong security model that does not easily allow the user to fuck themselves. I don't think not locking everything down completely will inevitably lead to every elderly person becoming a victim of scam, so I don't acknowledge that argument.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#887

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You quoted a sentence fragment that, when read in isolation, conveys a position I emphatically reject. To answer your question directly: I contend that when it comes to operating a marketplace for interactive entertainment, an iPhone is no different from a Nintendo Switch, and if you want to impose rules, they must be imposed equally. For all other apps, I think Epic made some valid points.

The quote was not intended to frame your position in any particular manner. Simply to provide context so it was clear what I was responding to. I take two issues with your response. First and foremost, the point I raised was specifically about the size of an operation relative to the overall market. You haven't addressed that. You say you see no difference but don't explain why. It seems obvious to me that larger pla…

> Apple doesn't operate a marketplace for games

Since games also account for 70% or more of revenue, the App Store is more accurately described as a game store that also sells non-game apps, rather than a general store that also sells games.

The Game Store part of the app store could certainly stand on its own and operate with similar terms to Nintendo's eShop, Sony's PSN store, or Google Play.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#888
post #875

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can opt out like you can opt out of using a phone. Sure, you won't die, but you won't have much of a social life either.

You do know a phone has a browser installed right?

Really? Where can I see all the games this "browser" has, ranked by rating?

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#889
post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What really makes it uncomfortable is that Apple isn't just a neutral marketplace. They control the OS, the distribution channel, and the payment rails, so creators and platforms like Patreon can't realistically opt out

They could opt out - by sticking to web platforms. Apple cannot charge for that. However, apple does attempt to gimp the web platforms on mobile to "subtly" push for apps.

This rethoric is destructive and threatens society and democracy alike. Apple is not just some company that you can just opt out of, if you're working in a certain field. Just like you can't opt out to YouTube if you're a content creator.

It not like an email service where you can just switch from Gmail to fastmail to proton or to any of the other dozens of big email providers.

There's apple. There Google. That's it.

Opt out. Jesus Christ...

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#890
post #875

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do know a phone has a browser installed right?

Really? Where can I see all the games this "browser" has, ranked by rating?

Due to the web's distributed nature, "all" is impossible, but there are plenty of ranked-by-rating lists of web games out there. I don't want to be spammy so I'm only gonna link one of them that comes to mind, but there are a lot of other listings you can find at any search engine of your choice!

https://www.kongregate.com/

(All is impossible for both iOS and Android also: Games that don't get updated, games that get unlisted due to having a link to their own website with the wrong phrasing next to it, games that get unlisted due to the app store owner not being satisfied with the description page for the game, regional restrictions, requests from governments to remove socially unacceptable apps, etc)

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