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Man shot and killed by federal agents in south Minneapolis this morning

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Re: Man shot and killed by federal agents in south Minneapolis this morning

#881

Post by jbullock35 »

ajross wrote: post #781
jbullock35 wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know if this is your intent or not, but by engaging in this kind of framing you're essentially saying that all violence[1] is excusable by default. We're supposed to live in a society where the opposite is true, I thought. > [1] All violence by your allied authority figures, that is. We both know you wouldn't grant the same grace and charity to the intentions of the protestors. This is a disgraceful ad homi…

> This is a disgraceful ad hominem attack. An ad hominem argument is an argument constructed around characteristics of a person outside the bounds of what is being discussed. Inferring someone's opinion[1] about the subject under discussion from their text, and explicitly marking so in my text when doing so, is just "debate". Am I wrong? Say I'm wrong and cite why. Don't call me "disgraceful". Why? Because THAT is an…

> Don't call me "disgraceful". Why? Because THAT is an ad hominem attack.

You're right about that. I'm sorry.

No further comment from me in this thread.

Re: Man shot and killed by federal agents in south Minneapolis this morning

#882

Post by zahlman »

defrost wrote: post #868
zahlman wrote: post #867

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I assume the Renée Good shooting, which was three times. Interesting the conflicting orders she received were not "lawful". Her vehicle was across a single lane, prior to the shooting incident vehicles were freely passing, so traffic was not blocked by a common occurrence of a vehicle across a single lane of an icy road. She was not stopping ICE or DHS from apprehending an immigrant, and the Federal Immigration agent…

All three of the things said don't accurately describe the Good incident (she was not shot five times; "not resisting" is not applicable if you imagine e.g. physically trying to prevent the application of handcuffs and clearly untrue if you take it to include fleeing; and the "federal investigation failing to bring charges" doesn't exist) so I assumed it wasn't that case. But I'll respond to your analysis of that case anyway:

> the conflicting orders she received were not "lawful".

They do not become "not lawful" at your say-so. And she was not "given conflicting orders". That is a propaganda narrative ignorant of basic law. Good was repeatedly told to move (in the initial encounter with Ross, before he begins circling the car, repeatedly refused, then significant time passed. Then she was told to get out of the car, presumably because she was under arrest for refusing to move.

It is the same as how an ordinary local police officer who tells you to leave a property because you're trespassing, is entitled to arrest you (which entails you not leaving) if you repeatedly refuse to leave.

> Her vehicle was across a single lane

It was perpendicular to the road, and parked. That's obstruction. The fact that cars could get around does not mean they "were freely passing". And as you point out, the road was icy; that makes this situation more dangerous, and the blocked lane a more serious obstruction.

> She was not stopping ICE or DHS from apprehending an immigrant

She was significantly impeding them, in a manner that can very easily be argued to meet the necessary standards in the relevant legal code.

> and the Federal Immigration agents had no authority to deal with traffic matters in MN.

8 USC 1357 makes it clear that they can make arrests for federal crimes committed in their presence. This includes obstructing them, which is by definition done in their presence and is a federal crime by virtue of the fact that they are federal officers. And as LEO they can generally issue lawful orders. The fact that she's in a car doesn't somehow deny them jurisdiction. They aren't "dealing with traffic matters"; they're dealing with obstruction of justice.

Re: Man shot and killed by federal agents in south Minneapolis this morning

#883

Post by zahlman »

latexr wrote: post #872
zahlman wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* * *

[flagged]

> The appropriate reaction to being admittedly ignorant about a topic is looking it up or requesting a source.

What you quoted implies a request for a source. It is not unreasonable to state my priors. That is not "a priori deciding". Your insult is uncalled for and contrary to HN guidelines.

Re: Man shot and killed by federal agents in south Minneapolis this morning

#884

Post by lcnPylGDnU4H9OF »

zahlman wrote: post #878
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote: post #876

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You are consistently condescending throughout the above (thus, this is my last reply) and have repeatedly misrepresented my meaning (for example, I did not "try to hide behind things I call factual analyses"; where I call things objective fact, they are actually objective fact that I either have established or can easily establish, and where I don't, they are opinion to the extent that common sense would interpret th…

[flagged]

Re: Man shot and killed by federal agents in south Minneapolis this morning

#885

Post by nomel »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #694
nomel wrote: post #687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you provide a reference for them not being federal law enforcement officers (specifically immigration law)? Note that you provided none, but I do find some of your text on an AI generated website. 18 is for "general federal law". Are you trying to say they're not federal law enforcement because it's specific federal law and not general? Do you have a reference that supports this? From the Cornell link: > Enforc…

Yes, immigration/deportation officers are enforcing civil violations, not criminal, meaning they don't qualify. HSI is the group that does actual criminal stuff and that qualify under statute. ICE officers aren't doing that. Also the statutes that give authority require proper training, which ICE is definitely not receiving with their cut down. But nah, I'm not spending more time after your uncalled for 'AI website'…

> after your uncalled for 'AI website' dig

It wasn't a dig. I found the the verbatim text when I searched for some of your on an AI website, trying try to find a reference, since you didn't provide any. Your entire response was very confusing, being a mix of unreferenced pasted text from multiple sources, none that come to the conclusion that you made, which appears to be personal opinion, and, again, no delineation between text of law, pasted text from websites, and your opinion.

I don't see how they come to the conclusion that you do with those links, several seem to be tangential to if they are federal law enforcement. If you could quote exactly what makes you think what you do, that would be helpful, but I'm more interested in legal opinion with some level of qualification behind it, rather than personal opinion, since personal opinion is all I've been able to find.

For the basic training requirement, I guess you're referring to this [1], which is referenced from the others. Do you have a reference that they're not receiving this training? The closest I can find is this investigative journalist [2], with the conclusion seeming to be that they are, at least for the requirements of the law.

If they're not federal law enforcement, I would think finding a reference would be easy saying that they're not, but, again, I've never found one and nobody that claims they aren't has been able to provide one. Again, it is easy to find a reference that they are federal law enforcement.

> I looked but don't have that site in my history.

The one website in my last comment was a reference for immigration law requiring federal enforcement. There's no reason it would be in your history, unless you thought it was for the AI website I found the text on, which means we're at the limits of communication here.

Cheers!

[1] > https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&...

[2] https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2026/1/23/are-ice-agents-...

Re: Man shot and killed by federal agents in south Minneapolis this morning

#886

Post by muwtyhg »

AlecSchueler wrote: post #846
muwtyhg wrote: post #843

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The allowing of cancelling or delaying elections due to war or civil unrest? No.

An extant mechanism. You asked if there's a mechanism. Do you think they need one?

What? I just said no. Let me put it more plainly: I do not think there should be a mechanism for the federal government to cancel or delay elections due to war or civil unrest.

Why are you ignoring my question, asking another one, then ignoring my answer and asking it again?

Re: Man shot and killed by federal agents in south Minneapolis this morning

#887

Post by tgrowazay »

arunabha wrote: post #322

This was an execution, plain and simple. There is no way around it. There are videos from multiple angles and there was an eyewitness (the lady in the pink jacket) literally two feet away. I am hoping against hope that people regardless of political association, will demand accountability. America, our democracy and the rule of the law will be on trial in the coming days. Let's see how we fare.

[flagged]

Re: Man shot and killed by federal agents in south Minneapolis this morning

#888

Post by AlecSchueler »

muwtyhg wrote: post #886
AlecSchueler wrote: post #846

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An extant mechanism. You asked if there's a mechanism. Do you think they need one?

What? I just said no. Let me put it more plainly: I do not think there should be a mechanism for the federal government to cancel or delay elections due to war or civil unrest. Why are you ignoring my question, asking another one, then ignoring my answer and asking it again?

Why are you asking if there is a mechanism?

Re: Man shot and killed by federal agents in south Minneapolis this morning

#889

Post by queenkjuul »

zahlman wrote: post #867
queenkjuul wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ICE shot a woman 5 times while she was alone in her car. Body cam confirmed she did not resist, federal investigation failed to produce charges. But yeah, it's just not happening, you couldn't possibly just be unaware Edit: you literally said "i will not watch the videos" - you are admittedly willfully ignorant on the subject, your posts are therefore irrelevant

[flagged]

Marimar on the south side of Chicago

https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/miramar-martinez-shooting-...

Edit: thanks for showing you were literally unaware!

Re: Man shot and killed by federal agents in south Minneapolis this morning

#890

Post by queenkjuul »

defrost wrote: post #868
zahlman wrote: post #867

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I assume the Renée Good shooting, which was three times. Interesting the conflicting orders she received were not "lawful". Her vehicle was across a single lane, prior to the shooting incident vehicles were freely passing, so traffic was not blocked by a common occurrence of a vehicle across a single lane of an icy road. She was not stopping ICE or DHS from apprehending an immigrant, and the Federal Immigration agent…

South side of Chicago in October, CBP shot a woman 5 times, she survived and was completely exonerated

https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/miramar-martinez-shooting-...

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