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The last-ever penny will be minted today in Philadelphia

cnn.com

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Re: The last-ever penny will be minted today in Philadelphia

#881

Post by soerxpso »

hypeatei wrote: post #445
simpleguitar wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the article points out, there are laws that say people who pay via SNAP debit cards "cannot be charged more than others". If cash payments are rounded down, but debit card payments aren't, they are in violation of state law. The article also points out that rollback of pennies in Canada and other places were planned, addressing these kinds of issues. USA is doing it with no such planning.

> there are laws that say Hmm, maybe this is why it should be handled by Congress and not at the whim of the executive. They can handle all this in one piece of legislation.

Good luck getting Congress to do anything at all, ever. Best we can offer you is one big partisan pork bill every two years, no matter who's in charge and no matter what voters actually want. Maybe if one senator (foolishly) decided to make penny rounding his pet issue, and worked his ass off at it, he could get half of it wrapped into the bi-annual pork bill.

Re: The last-ever penny will be minted today in Philadelphia

#882

Post by cachius »

shevy-java wrote: post #345

Hmm. I actually still like coins and paper money. However had in the EU, I don't like the 1 and 2 eurocent at all. These are just pointless really. I'd like a 5 euro coin and a 2 euro paper instead.

This is just what the head of the bavarian mint Reinhard Riffel said recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlwvnQnJAtg&t=840s

Quote in German:

Aus unserer Sicht, das überrascht viele, wenn ich das sag, würde es Sinn machen, die 1 und 2 Cent Münzen abzuschaffen und durch eine 5 € Münze zu ersetzen. Lästig empfinden die meisten Menschen eigentlich nur diese braunen Münzen, weil die einfach keine Kaufkraft haben. Die liegen im Portemonnaie, aber man kann dafür nichts kaufen. Man kann bestenfalls die als Rückgeld nutzen. 1 und 2 € Münzen werden europaweit dieses Jahr [2025] so viele gemacht wie noch nie. Warum ist das so? Weil sie eine Kaufkraft haben, weil die verwendet werden und weil die nicht als lästig empfunden werden. Münzen sind für den Steuerzahler massiv günstiger. Ne 5 oder 10 € Banknote in der Herstellung oder in der Beschaffung für den Bund kostet in etwa so viel wie eine 2 € Münze, aber die 2 € Münze hält 20 Jahre und die 5 € Banknote hält 3 Monate. [...] Gerade die 5 und 10 € Banknoten sind extrem in Zirkulation; drei maximal sechs Monate, da sind die durch. Kann man sich ausrechnen, wie viel der Staat sparen würde, wenn man jetzt eine 5 € Münze einführen würde und die 5 € Banknote ersetzt.

Translation to English:

From our point of view, which surprises many when I say this, it would make sense to abolish the 1 and 2 cent coins and replace them with a 5 euro coin. Most people actually only find these brown coins annoying because they simply have no purchasing power. They lie in your wallet, but you can't buy anything with them. At best, they can be used as change. This year [2025], more 1 and 2 euro coins will be produced across Europe than ever before. Why is that? Because they have purchasing power, because they are used, and because they are not considered a nuisance. Coins are much cheaper for taxpayers. A €5 or €10 banknote costs about as much to produce or procure for the federal government as a €2 coin, but the €2 coin lasts 20 years and the €5 banknote lasts 3 months. [...] The €5 and €10 banknotes in particular are in extremely high circulation; they last three to six months at most. You can calculate how much the state would save if it introduced a €5 coin now to replace the €5 banknote.

Re: The last-ever penny will be minted today in Philadelphia

#884

Post by weberer »

metabagel wrote: post #412
jandrewrogers wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several reasons, it really is a mess. The local tax is set by multiple independent tax authorities that change their taxes independently, the tax you see is the aggregate of those independent authorities computed separately, which do not coordinate with each other. Some of these taxes are conditional at point-of-sale, late-binding the taxes, such that different customers are subject to different rates across these ta…

> It is widely illegal to not display the true price and taxes paid separately. Trying to retcon a price and taxes for rounding purposes that is also strictly consistent across customers so as to not violate the law is not trivial. Having lived in Europe, this should be changed. It makes it infeasible to keep track of your total bill as you shop. The amount without tax should be printed on the receipt, if you care to…

Having lived in Europe and New Hampshire, I much prefer New Hampshire's solution to the problem. Just abolish sales tax! Its annoying for everyone involved. The state can get enough money from income tax. There's no need to double-dip.

Re: The last-ever penny will be minted today in Philadelphia

#885

Post by beowulfey »

kasey_junk wrote: post #877
munk-a wrote: post #712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America is allergic to baked in taxes - you've got to keep the appearance of a deal even when there isn't one. America also embraces a lot of junk and hidden fees - ticketmaster is a great example of this. I think consumers would love having baked in taxes and clear prices and were the government functional I'd hope that a consumer advocacy agency could enforce this - but that's simply not where we are right now.

America isn’t against baked in taxes because of the appearance of a deal, it’s because there is the large part of the population that is against _taxation_. Their argument (which is probably right) is that if you bake in the tax then it will be ignored by more buyers and it will be easier to raise. Lots of odd American customs can be explained by this phenomenon. The other major difference in the states is that we do…

You can do this with State taxes too, but I think your impression that people just ignore it is correct. A good example of this is gas prices. Gas in CA is 70c per gallon, vs about 25c per gallon in the Northeast. This gets baked into the price, and is way more expensive in CA, but people need to buy gas. So you just have to pay. And since it is everywhere in the state, most people don't notice the difference.

Re: The last-ever penny will be minted today in Philadelphia

#886

Post by bjourne »

jcranmer wrote: post #490
bjourne wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Er... So just adjust prices to whole multiples of 5 cents? Helps math-challenged cashiers too...

Prices in the US are not tax-inclusive, so the effect of sales tax ruins that plan.

So you're telling me that when I buy stuff for 12.34 that is not the amount I have to pay, but some bigger amount that I have no way to calculate precisely unless I know exactly which sales tax rules are applicable for my purchase? It's baffling how backasswards the US is.

Re: The last-ever penny will be minted today in Philadelphia

#887

Post by lostapathy »

Telemakhos wrote: post #662
dyslexit wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article also points out that some states and a lot cities require retailers to provide exact change. Congress would need to pass legislation to allow rounding nationally. I'm guessing in the meantime they'll continue holding pennies from previous years?

So, implement sales tax like Europe does VAT and include it in on the shelf price, and make sure all shelf prices end in 0 or 5. Then, adding up items in a cart will also end in 0 or 5, and the tax is already included, so there is no math beyond the addition that could change the total to anything ending in something that is not 0 or 5. No matter how people pay, cash or card, the price will be the same, and it will a…

Yes, let’s solve a tricky problem the hardest way possible.

Re: The last-ever penny will be minted today in Philadelphia

#888

Post by CSMastermind »

asdfman123 wrote: post #679
paxys wrote: post #169

Too early to say "ever", considering there has been no act of congress on this matter and the penny continues to be legal tender. The decision to stop minting it is a (legally debatable) executive order, and the next president or even the current one can change their mind about it tomorrow.

I say we eliminate both pennies and (significantly more importantly) executive orders

> (significantly more importantly) executive orders

How would that work?

The president is the executive of the federal government and needs to issue directives to employees telling them how to do their jobs.

This is like saying we should get rid of CEOs sending emails.

Re: The last-ever penny will be minted today in Philadelphia

#890

Post by anticensor »

bdangubic wrote: post #455
thatguy0900 wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You volunteering your business to be the the test legal case for that? Or are you stocking pennies?

“change will be provided via Venmo” sign at the entrance :)

Payers are allowed to complete transaction using a single method, you can't violate that right.
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