Man, as an European I have the hope that this utterly bizarre and embarassing spectacle yesterday is finally waking us up and we start taking our fate into our own hands. Personally, I would do without a lot of things instead of having to watch europe being paraded around by a narcissist.
Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting
881–890 of 1001 posts
Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting
#882Well, here come the downvotes, but for anybody who thinks that it is completely believable that Trump is a Russian stooge or is “on Russias side” let me offer this up: - We want peace. Full stop. No more dead men, women, and children. THAT IS THE GOAL. CONTEXT: - Trump armed Ukraine to the teeth in first term, providing lethal aid which previous presidents did not do. He wanted to deter Putin while not also escalatin…
Trump did not "arm Ukraine to the teeth" in his first term.
He send a little bit of infantry weapons, and some armored cars. That's it.
It was a big break from Obama administration that essentially embargoed any weapons sales to Ukraine, but it was not in any way "arming to the teeth". Arming Ukraine in a sufficient manner would have required tens of billions each year, that did not happen.
"- There were rumblings of a peace deal in early 2022, but Boris Johnson and European delegation shot it down."
There was no such thing. The "peace deal" in question was a Russian capitulation offer, which was never signed.
"- Adding Ukraine to NATO is a line in the sand for Putin. How would we feel the US feel if China and Mexico entered a defense agreement and placed Chinese missiles on the US border? Adding Ukraine to Nato is an ESCALATION."
There was zero chance of Ukraine joining NATO simply due to the existing territorial disputes with Russia. Russian ultimatum to US in December 2021 was clear — get NATO to pre-1997 — Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Czech Republic etc should all leave NATO. That would mean dissolution of NATO effectively.
"a large US business interest in Ukraine (as opposed to backdoor dealings) is actually a way of strengthening the US's commitment and investment in Ukraine, right?"
It can work the same with Russia occupying the same territory. There is nothing there about "Ukraine" per se.
Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting
#883A couple other ripple effects that could shape the next decade with Americas new position 1. The nuclear deterrence of mutually assured destruction that’s been in place for half a century is no longer “assured” if the U.S. isn’t seen to be reliable. I have to imagine the second priority after upholding Ukraine is a European arms race, so that at least the sum of European warheads and delivery capabilities matches Rus…
If the people of Taiwan still don't see that they're being used as a sacrificial lamb to slow down China's economic rise, maybe they'll see it now.
Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting
#884I would like to know what the alternatives are. None that I can think of are palatable: 1. Support Ukraine enough so that Russia doesn't take too much more territory, but not enough for Russia to feel threatened and escalate the war. This was the Biden plan and it sounds like what Europe wants. I just don't see how this ends the war. Is this just buying time for someone to depose Putin? 2. Support Ukraine enough so i…
Yes, you did forget a scenario where a EU, US and possibly other countries military presence is on the table as a threat to deter further escalations by Russia, but does not actually occur.
To be more specific, you give Ukraine what it needs to freeze the current lines, a cease fire is signed, Russia gets to stop fighting while saving face, and the unoccupied part of Ukraine gets what would amount to NATO membership without formally joining .
The status of the occupied territories remains ambiguous, with the West and Ukraine banking on a change in leadership in Russia at some point in the future.
As far as I can tell, this is the type of deal that Zelensky thought he came to DC for.
Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting
#885What we saw on TV was just a glimpse of what actually already happens behind closed doors.
Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting
#886If European leaders don't watch this and realise they need to take control of their own destiny they're idiots. Several European leaders visited this week bending the knee to try and stave off tariffs. Time to stand up, realise the US is no longer a reliable ally, and start building (on all fronts - military, manufacturing, tech, etc). Given the American people voted for this guy twice - the second time in spite of J…
The historic strategic opportunity is for all of what remains of the free world to join the EU and become the 'rules based order' hegemon. Doesn't need to be literally the EU, a similar kind of organization would work.
Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting
#887I got this weird dissonance - like this was a science from a TV show about the White House, because no-one, I mean no-one would ever do that inpublic. Apart from common courtesy, even basic management training says praise in public, criticise in private. Just doing this in front of the world’s media … it’s hard to understand
Trump said toward the end of it, "This is gonna make great television." Remember he's a reality TV show star, not a diplomat or politician.
Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting
#888If you're one of the US allies in Asia, feeling threatened by China, what do you conclude from this?
This looks like a major strategic blunder.
Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting
#889thank god we have trump
Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting
#890is HN flooded with bots from ukraine propaganda machine? or is this just woke left?