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"Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

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Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#881

Post by energy123 »

insane_dreamer wrote: post #478
apexalpha wrote: post #88

>A White House Liaison is to be installed in every independent regulatory agency to enforce direct presidential control Wow. Literally installing political officers in agencies.

Incidentally, this is still how it works in China today.

It's the Leninist model of governance which was the reason China was able to defy Western expectations that economic freedom would eventually lead to political freedom.

But there is one difference which is that the Leninist model also involves party loyalists being appointed to corporations. The US isn't there yet.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#882

Post by djur »

klipt wrote: post #816
ineptech wrote: post #814

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Congress passes a law saying, "create an agency that sets rules about air pollution, whose director is appointed by the president", the constitution demands that the executive branch do exactly that. Interpreting that to mean "The president personally sets rules about air pollution, using an agency if he likes" is unconstitutional and I think the vast majority of both parties agreed on this for most of the last…

If Congress disagrees they have ways to override the president. They can pass new laws or even impeach him. But unless the dems get 2/3 the senate that will never happen.

They can pass new laws which the current president has stated he will interpret according to his desires, sure.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#883

Post by kelnos »

redeux wrote: post #409
lolinder wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> having our judicial branch become openly partisan A lot of the decisions that have been flagged as "openly partisan" are just the Supreme Court saying exactly what you're saying: the executive branch and judicial branch don't have the authority to write laws and both branches should really stop writing laws and force Congress to do that. We will see this year and in coming years whether this Supreme Court is partis…

What say you of the Trump vs United States (appropriately named) ruling that gives the president immunity from crimes committed while in office? Does that align with the idea that SCOTUS may reign in presidential power? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_v._United_States_(2024...

I think that decision was wrong, but I don't think we can necessarily use that as a template for future SCOTUS decisions about the things Trump might do. During his first term (even after he'd appointed justices), there were still rulings that went against Trump's administration. Just as during Biden's time in office, there were rulings in favor of his administration. While I do not like the ideological bent of the current Supreme Court, it is not clear that they are in favor of the dismantling of government through illegal means.

(A nit: the word you're looking for is "rein", as in the thing you hold when riding a horse, not "reign", the ruling period of a monarch.)

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#884

Post by djur »

refurb wrote: post #803
Nevermark wrote: post #788

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All three branches of the government are beholden to the Constitution as a whole, and to each other based on the Constitutional roles and their expressions of their roles. All government actors individually are also responsible to the Constitution and its expression by all three branches first , before any loyalty to anyone else. In the same branch or not. Even before the current top office holders of the executive b…

> Saying that a President’s personal interpretation of Congress’ laws or the courts precedence, completely overrides any individual executive employees good faith understanding and responsibility to the Constitution, laws, and judicial rulings is madness. But it's not madness based on the intended structure of government? The EO isn't saying "ignore Constitutional violations". It wouldn't be valid if it did. If Congr…

> The executive branch of government is more accurately viewed as a monolithic organization which derives 100% of it's authority by delegation from the US President.

This is a very extreme version of unitary executive theory, which is highly controversial even in its weaker forms.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#885

Post by kelnos »

cavisne wrote: post #381
steveBK123 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the problem with people being OK with executive overreach when "their team" is in power. Eventually, and in fact about 50% of the time - the OTHER team is in power.. and may just push the overreach further. We should desire that the legislative side actually legislates and each branch of the government holds the other two in check, regardless of partisan control. Further having our judicial branch become open…

Having a permanent bureaucracy that ignores directives from the executive only really benefits democrats (look at the Washington DC presidential vote totals). So this executive order is not a both sides thing, or about executive overreach. Something like the REINS Act, forcing regulations to be voted on by congress, would be something that hurts both sides & prevents executive overreach.

> look at the Washington DC presidential vote totals

Most federal civil servants live in Maryland or Virginia, not in DC.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#886

Post by kelnos »

Animats wrote: post #406
dkobia wrote: post #128

This new administration lays bare what we've known all along - the legislative gridlock and dysfunction in the house of representatives and senate has made them completely incapable of governing -- the least productive in a generation. This is opened up an opportunity for a well funded strongman, and the checks and balances that were intended to protect our democracy are now mere suggestions.

Yes. A good example is immigration policy. Setting immigration policy is an enumerated power of Congress. The executive branch has no say at all. Congress failed to revise immigration policy when it got out of sync with facts on the ground. That led to the current mess. The last attempt to overhaul immigration policy was in 2006.[1] Arguably, this was more workable than what we have now. It combined tough enforcement…

> This is the moment to do something.

How so? I don't really have any confidence that the current Congress (regardless of which party we're talking about) could agree on anything but what you pointed out -- minor tweaks.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#887

Post by arunabha »

refurb wrote: post #689
timoth3y wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even with a highly sympathetic Supreme Court it is hard to imagine this EO standing. It goes against the foundation of not only US law, but couple of hundred years of international democratic tradition in which allegiance is not to a person, but to the nation itself. US civil servants and military alike swear an oath to support and defend the Constitution not the president or their commander. Illegal orders are not o…

This EO eliminates the concept of an illegal order since the law would be whatever the executive interprets it to be. How do you come to that to conclusion, especially in the context of the EO? This EO doesn't change the Constitution's requirement that the President "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed". I'm not a lawyer but I would interpret this EO to say "it is the job of the President to execute the la…

> This EO doesn't change the fact that President is held accountable by the judicial branch for following the law.

Didn't the judicial branch say that presidents have broad(or near total) immunity for their official acts? Then how is the judiciary going to hold the president accountable when they choose to interpret the law based on personal whim?

With this EO, every federal worker has to adhere to that whim or face dismissal at best or prosecution at worst.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#888

Post by kelnos »

mmooss wrote: post #572
dkobia wrote: post #128

This new administration lays bare what we've known all along - the legislative gridlock and dysfunction in the house of representatives and senate has made them completely incapable of governing -- the least productive in a generation. This is opened up an opportunity for a well funded strongman, and the checks and balances that were intended to protect our democracy are now mere suggestions.

> the legislative gridlock and dysfunction in the house of representatives and senate has made them completely incapable of governing -- the least productive in a generation. They governed well enough until January 20. > This is opened up an opportunity for a well funded strongman, and the checks and balances that were intended to protect our democracy are now mere suggestions. Creating gridlock and dysfunction is an…

This is the thing that drives me nuts, especially when someone smugly trots out the "Democrats and Republicans are the same" nonsense.

Even when Republicans are in power, Democrats don't resort to blatantly obstructionist measures to mess with a Republican administration.

Democrats don't refuse to consider judicial nominations because "it's a presidential election year", and then hypocritically rush through a SCOTUS appointment right at the end of a presidential term.

Sure, they do things like vote down a debt ceiling increase when it's paired with some completely unrelated legislation that they don't agree with. But when the power balance is reversed, Republicans will vote down a debt ceiling increase if it's not paired with some completely unrelated legislation that they want.

(I wish there was something in the constitution that required that each bit of legislation be single-topic. Certainly that would still be open to interpretation. But I think at the very least it would eliminate the more obvious examples of abusive brinkmanship.)

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#889

Post by dragonwriter »

djur wrote: post #884
refurb wrote: post #803

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Saying that a President’s personal interpretation of Congress’ laws or the courts precedence, completely overrides any individual executive employees good faith understanding and responsibility to the Constitution, laws, and judicial rulings is madness. But it's not madness based on the intended structure of government? The EO isn't saying "ignore Constitutional violations". It wouldn't be valid if it did. If Congr…

> The executive branch of government is more accurately viewed as a monolithic organization which derives 100% of it's authority by delegation from the US President. This is a very extreme version of unitary executive theory, which is highly controversial even in its weaker forms.

Moreover, even were one to accept that extreme version of unitary executive theory, it would be odd to also assume an act of Congress purporting to create an subordinate executive officer who was appointed by the President but removable for only specified cause and granting authority specifically to that officer was then valid but had the effect of actually granting the specified authority directly to the President; a more natural conclusion would be that, as the express intent of such a law was unconstitutional, it was void and had no effect.
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