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Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

theguardian.com

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Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#881

Post by TacticalCoder »

gtvwill wrote: post #55
vessenes wrote: post #19

Not clear right now if France thinks he was actively complicit with the four horsemen listed, or if just the act of running Telegram makes him complicit in their eyes, or something in the middle, e.g. they asked for help and Telegram turned them down. This will be an interesting case to watch -- I don't believe there are any western nations that want non-locally-backdoored messaging of any sort -- but generally my un…

But here's the thing. If your app is known to be uses heavily by criminals ranging from Pedo's to drug dealers. You are liable. You run a carrier service. Much like the owner of omegle found out, yes you do have a duty of care. You can't just provide a service that knowingly provides a platform to criminal activity and do jack shit. You live in fairytale land if you think you can.

> If your app is known to be uses heavily by criminals ranging from Pedo's to drug dealers.

What about toilet paper? It's used by quite some criminals (not all that said: many criminals have very poor hygiene and just put their undies back on without wiping after number two).

Should we arrest people manufacturing toilet paper?

Anyway we all know it's not about criminals: it's about controlling speech so that protests as in Barcelona, the UK (where people who are denouncing rapes and killings are put in jail, while the actual rapists get very light sentences like only six months in jail), etc. cannot organize themselves.

It's about controlling the narrative.

And they're using useful idiots resorting to broken logic to push their totalitarian agenda.

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#882

Post by lkfajw »

limit499karma wrote: post #869
ein0p wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problem with Telegram is it’s not subject to Western surveillance and censorship. Best I can tell, it’s also not subject to Eastern surveillance and censorship which is why it was (unsuccessfully) banned in Russia in 2018. As of right now, this is one of the few places where you can find true information about WW3 which is currently ongoing in Ukraine. This is true of all sides of the conflict: the only trul…

"The deputy speaker of the state Duma, Vladislav Davankov, said he had called on Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov to secure Durov’s release. “The arrest of [Durov] could have political motives and be a means of obtaining the personal data of Telegram users. We must not allow this,” he said on his Telegram channel." https://www.ft.com/content/c5d40e3c-9f9c-43dc-a467-1c713b40c... That makes me wonder if Telegram…

Yes, in case like Facebook it would be easy to say that it provides information to the U.S. gov.

With Telegram, as you say, the Russian ban (somewhere around 2014) could have been designed to signal that Telegram is not run by the FSB.

This arrest, on the other hand, could have been intended signal that Telegram is not run by the CIA.

There have been a couple of house searches, extradition orders and YouTube bans all in the last two weeks for pro Russian commentators. I always wonder if these individuals are genuine or actually working for the U.S. gov.

Anyway, together with the latest crackdown of the EU on Musk all these events could be genuine and not staged.

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#883

Post by Angelore »

Fnoord wrote: post #631
4bpp wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a way, Durov's arrest retroactively vindicates every EU citizen's decision to use Telegram (up until now), as it proves that they haven't been getting what they want from him. I am not nearly as concerned about Durov himself or the government of Dubai getting to read my messages as I am about the EU or one of its member states doing so, as there simply isn't much I can see the former doing with that data. The real…

Why would you be afraid of EU LE? Unlike countries such as Iran, Russia, SA, UAE it has reasonable laws.

Iran and Russia also had reasonable laws once. Then things changed. The problem is, you can't delete your old chats from the %EU_NSA_analogue%'s servers once they get there. The funniest part is, you might think that you are safe because that one sussy message was posted so long ago. Well, statutes of limitations are changed/ignored just as easily as any other law.

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#884

Post by exceptione »

defrost wrote: post #835
exceptione wrote: post #821

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be very concerned if your knitting grandma was an active member of a drugs and arms dealergroup. I am pretty much against surveillance in the form of drag nets, but none of that applies here. Instead, this is exactly how a functional state should work. (And note that no exceptions are made for Pavel because he is rich and well-connected. Contrast that with brittle countries where politicians rely on tech bill…

Australia is part of the five eyes, many Australians with, say, a signals intell background will have seen things that may or may not make your eyes bleed wrt crime and|or state actions. Yes, functional states should have extremely good oversight .. in reality they "mostly do" but with cracks that allow unwanted behaviours to sneak through and sometimes become normalised. eg. recent revelations that SASR types are "b…

Yes, no disagreement here. The Five Eyes is a poignant example of what happens if your essential view on societal ordering is that ordinary people are there to serve the select few. The problem for the US and Australia is that they inherited all the flaws from the UK, which till this day is still quite a class based society.

This is also why the US did not inherit a real, solid concept of personal privacy. Instead, ordinary people are increasingly becoming sort of property of corporates. You can see that if you contrast the Rheinland model (state reigns in corporates, protect people rights) with the Anglo-sphere, which is much more suited to a few select capital holders extracting value from the workforce (compare holiday allowance, fire at will etc).

This doesn´t mean that in Europe the Rheinland model is not under active threat, far from it. And look at collective self harm: watch this space (HN) if the EU sometimes takes measures against abusive monopolies. It is a very difficult fight.

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#885

Post by croes »

stavros wrote: post #745
croes wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is the GDPR big-brother-like-thinking?

The GDPR is the "nobody can compromise your privacy" part and the surveillance is the "except me" part. Big Brother's whole spiel was "we're watching over you for your own good". To clarify, I like the GDPR, and wish the EU would give us more of that and less of the surveillance.

But because of the privacy laws their surveillance laws get sacked in court.

Same with their attempts to make the data export to the US legal.

Safe Harbor, Privacy Shield, etc. They try and try but fail every time because it's always the same just a different name.

Hopefully that prevails.

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#886

Post by ErikBjare »

croes wrote: post #658
ein0p wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problem with Telegram is it’s not subject to Western surveillance and censorship. Best I can tell, it’s also not subject to Eastern surveillance and censorship which is why it was (unsuccessfully) banned in Russia in 2018. As of right now, this is one of the few places where you can find true information about WW3 which is currently ongoing in Ukraine. This is true of all sides of the conflict: the only trul…

And how to you find the true uncensored information between all the propaganda on telegram?

Same as on every other platform?

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#887

Post by [deleted] »

lkfajw wrote: post #882
limit499karma wrote: post #869

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The deputy speaker of the state Duma, Vladislav Davankov, said he had called on Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov to secure Durov’s release. “The arrest of [Durov] could have political motives and be a means of obtaining the personal data of Telegram users. We must not allow this,” he said on his Telegram channel." https://www.ft.com/content/c5d40e3c-9f9c-43dc-a467-1c713b40c... That makes me wonder if Telegram…

Yes, in case like Facebook it would be easy to say that it provides information to the U.S. gov. With Telegram, as you say, the Russian ban (somewhere around 2014) could have been designed to signal that Telegram is not run by the FSB. This arrest, on the other hand, could have been intended signal that Telegram is not run by the CIA. There have been a couple of house searches, extradition orders and YouTube bans all…

[deleted]

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#888

Post by riedel »

nextos wrote: post #346
jfim wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One detail that's missing from the English article is why he got arrested. The French article mentions: Why was he under threat of a search warrant? The Justice considers that the absence of moderation, cooperation with law enforcement and the tools offered by Telegram (disposable numbers, cryptocurrencies...) makes him an accomplice to drug trafficking, child-crime offenses and swindling.

Does this mean that according to EU, or France, E2E-encrypted platforms need to "cooperate" (provide backdoors)? Or does it refer to public channels only?

As said before: the whole E2E, CSAM diskussion is not really the issue here. This is afaik about complying mostly to very specific takedown requests (as telegram offers no legal address inside the EU) and more general platform regulations that require mechanisms to prevent illegal content. Telegram does not offer any E2E encrypted group chat and actually actively interferes in groups by pushing advertisements, so they should be able to also block illegal content.

Having said that I am no fan of installing law enforcement inside private companies. However, telegrams noncompliance with court orders is problematic particularly related to protecting human rights of 3rd parties in the digital age.

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#889

Post by 331c8c71 »

kaba0 wrote: post #689
331c8c71 wrote: post #679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in Europe breast is more or less indecent to show in public. There is no single "Europe". I have seen many women sunbathing topless in Denmark - it seems to be totally acceptable there. Haven't seen that in France - but it has a very strong nudist culture dating back at least to the 60s. Some of these nudist beaches are actually famous e.g. Cape d'Agde.

And then we didn’t even talk about Spain, and all the German tourists in, say, Mallorca. If anything, this is a stark difference between the EU and the US, in general — the EU is much less afraid of a nipple being shown in public, both in arts and everything.

I once attended a local one man show where the actor's private parts were exposed for a second or two (by accident). There were a lot of kids in the audience (including mine). I was a bit uncomfortable for a second but we laughed it off with the friends.

Re: Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport

#890

Post by riedel »

mrtksn wrote: post #686
NayamAmarshe wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really no. > To protect the data that is not covered by end-to-end encryption, Telegram uses a distributed infrastructure. Cloud chat data is stored in multiple data centers around the globe that are controlled by different legal entities spread across different jurisdictions. The relevant decryption keys are split into parts and are never kept in the same place as the data they protect. As a result, several cour…

That's a system put in place against the legal system but it's not a technical limitation. For example, he will be able to look into the chats of his ex without the need of court orders of multiple unfriendly countries proving that the situation is grave and universal one. When the limitation is not technical, your only guarantee is the integrity of the operators and the lack of interest of your attackers coercing th…

Funny thing is that now Russia says they France needs to guarantee access to the Russian embassy for him (not really sure if he wants that). But wikipedia says he has UAE and French citizenship...
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