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10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

miamiherald.com

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Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#881

Post by ransom1538 »

mfru wrote: post #760
mattmaroon wrote: post #730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t brain drain imply the smarter people are moving? I’m not sure that’s what’s happening here. I think it’s anyone who can get out. When I was in Havana our AirBnB was next to the Spanish embassy. There was a long line every morning of potential emigres waiting for their turn. (I have no idea how the process works when they get to the front of the line, I just was told they were trying to get out of the country…

> After spending a couple weeks in Cuba it’s not hard to see why. Which is the consequence of being sanctioned into oblivion for decades by the global hegemon, much to the dislike of the entire rest of the world.

OR. They lost a gamble. They picked Russia over the US and lost, big.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#882

Post by philippejara »

stef25 wrote: post #836
mfru wrote: post #760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After spending a couple weeks in Cuba it’s not hard to see why. Which is the consequence of being sanctioned into oblivion for decades by the global hegemon, much to the dislike of the entire rest of the world.

Ah yes, sanctions. That's what everyone said when I was in Venezuela toward the end of Chavez. Couldn't possibly be incompetence or corruption.

The sanctions in Venezuela are/were very different from the ones in Cuba, there is a prohibition of trade from any US company and its subsidiaries with Cuba with the exception of food, not some specific sectors aimed at supposedly weakening the government.

With that being said it could also be incompetence and/or corruption, but ignoring the embargo completely is just working to weaken your argument.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#883

Post by Galanwe »

TapWaterBandit wrote: post #442
linearrust wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Note that it's only the US that has an embargo against Cuba. And that's the only embargo that matters. Given a choice between an embargo by the US or embargo by the rest of the world, cuba and every country in the world would choose 'the rest of the world'. Especially so for cuba since it's just right off the coast of florida. > The rest of the world trades pretty freely with them. No they do not.

> Given a choice between an embargo by the US or embargo by the rest of the world, cuba and every country in the world would choose 'the rest of the world'. No way is this true. Look at this list of countries by biggest trade partners (import & export) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_leading_t... . You really think countries will willing choose to trade with the USA over the rest of the world when…

> You really think countries will willing choose to trade with the USA over the rest of the world when it isn't the biggest destination for their exports nor their major source of imports? Why would they do that exactly?

Yes, any day. Because US embargos prevent you from trading in USD, which is pretty much the de facto currency for any trade due to its stability and backing.

Also, even if you manage to settle your trade in say EUR, you now have to trade without using any US intermediary. Nothing related to this trade can involve a US bank, payment system, legal firm, etc.

A US embargo is pretty much the worst thing that can happen to a country. Only if your country has already strong ties to the middle east, Russia or China can you hope to do any sort of export.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#884

Post by daniel-s »

mfru wrote: post #760
mattmaroon wrote: post #730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t brain drain imply the smarter people are moving? I’m not sure that’s what’s happening here. I think it’s anyone who can get out. When I was in Havana our AirBnB was next to the Spanish embassy. There was a long line every morning of potential emigres waiting for their turn. (I have no idea how the process works when they get to the front of the line, I just was told they were trying to get out of the country…

> After spending a couple weeks in Cuba it’s not hard to see why. Which is the consequence of being sanctioned into oblivion for decades by the global hegemon, much to the dislike of the entire rest of the world.

If Cuba were a free society instead of being run by communists they would have an economy that worked. This is the destruction caused by ~¾ of a century of central economic planning and Marxist ideology.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#885

Post by PaulRobinson »

ChumpGPT wrote: post #868
mfru wrote: post #760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After spending a couple weeks in Cuba it’s not hard to see why. Which is the consequence of being sanctioned into oblivion for decades by the global hegemon, much to the dislike of the entire rest of the world.

[flagged]

I don’t think you understand the history of Cuba, communism, capitalism, democracy, poverty, slavery, free markets, sanctions, or the interactions between all these things.

Nobody in Cuba “asked for”, what you call “poverty and slavery”.

There are over 2 million tourists a year to Cuba. So saying “even the tourists aren’t going any more” is factually incorrect. I’m not sure if numbers going up or down is related to “bread in resorts”. I suspect it isn’t a leading consideration for most.

The fastest growing economy of the last few decades is communist, and Vietnam and Laos just plod on, so while I might have sympathy that authoritarianism is a horrible system, I’m not sure I see the picture as bleak as you do.

I realise what I am about to ask you will come across as flippant, but I actually sincerely mean it. Could you go and read some books on the topics you think you’re an expert on before posting utter turgid nonsense you read on another forum here? I don’t want to live in a communist state, but I’m not so arrogant as to blame the citizens of a sanctioned authoritarian system for their own misery. Neither should you.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#886

Post by hkt »

altvali wrote: post #865
thiagoharry wrote: post #861

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US has been the the only major country sanctioning Cuba for a decade and a half Which is enough, as the US controls the emission of dollars, have monopolies over several technologies and, as it extends the sanctions even to the ships that trade in Cuba, disallowing them to enter in US, on practice it difficult trades between Cuba and any other country. > It doesn't explain why Cuba needs to import 70-80% of the…

I'm not educated on the subject. Why can't Cuba import the fertilizer and build the machines? There are open source blueprints, like the Global Village Construction Set.

Foreign currency the US is Cuba's most logical export market. So, with a shortfall of dollars/etc, importing things is problematic. So Cuba's reliance on importing food - especially from the US - looks like a spiral: eating today taking precedence over planting etc.

I don't know as much about this next part, but seeds are also harder to import. I'd hazard a guess at there not being much capacity in that market unless you're buying from Monsanto or the like, which seems not to be an option in Cuba as those (American) companies are not exempt from the embargo, unlike exporters of food and medical supplies.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#887

Post by underlipton »

luckylion wrote: post #844
cced wrote: post #802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opinions like these are the reason why this “communism v capitalism” discussion never evolves beyond “them bad us good”. China is often the target of anti communist propaganda so how do you square that hole? 1# economy when looking at GDP(PPP) so your “analysis” falls short. Communist “regimes” often have to deal with outside interference from the “superior” capitalist system. OP’s point is extremely valid: Cuba does…

> China is often the target of anti communist propaganda so how do you square that hole? 1# economy when looking at GDP(PPP) so your “analysis” falls short. And that primarily came to be when they cut back on the centrally planned economy and allowed more free markets. Whether they will allow that to continue is to be seen. > Communist “regimes” often have to deal with outside interference from the “superior” capital…

>And that primarily came to be when

they courted Western investment and resource-sharing with promises of access to their massive population, and then proceeded to steal and copy everything not nailed down, heavily restrict foreign firms' ability both to access their consumer markets and to repatriate capital, employed sweatshop labor, all while supporting quasi-state quasi-monopolies that literally could not fail in any meaningful way. Don't take this as unqualified criticism; it worked, and compensated for some of the worst injuries and excesses of the West's relations with the Chinese state. But the point is that it wasn't adherence to tenets of "fair-market capitalism" so much as abuse of labor and investor trust that gave them an edge. (And, to be fair, a tamer version of this strategy featured in America's own rise to economic powerhouse; Liu and Andrew, Ma and Ma Bell.)

Also, as an anecdote, the superfest story says hi. The Reds invented a superior glass manufacturing process that was ignored by the West until they could control and profit off it without it benefiting the USSR. You're familiar with it because it's (probably) the screen you're reading this on.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#888

Post by krvajal »

cardanome wrote: post #848
Aunche wrote: post #827

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has been the the only major country sanctioning Cuba for a decade and a half, but the economy has only gotten worse. Sanctions may explain why they has lagged behind in tech. It doesn't explain why Cuba needs to import 70-80% of their food despite being a fertile tropical paradise. https://www.wfpusa.org/countries/cuba/#:~:text=Cuba%20import... .

> It doesn't explain why Cuba needs to import 70-80% of their food despite being a fertile tropical paradise. There have been famine and starvation before the communists took power. I don't think Cuba has ever been fully food self-sufficient. Not many countries are. Not to mention agriculture needs access to fertilizers which the sanctions make harder to get. The more important part from your source: > The largest is…

what food basket are you talking about? that thing only exists in the news. in reality why dystopian reality you live in?

Cuba better than Haiti??? You are reading to many fake news. Cubans are travelling to Haiti to buy food and medicine.

Cuban healthcare good? You are joking right? If you need surgery have to bring your own equipment, including chirurgical globes and syringes. You have to either buy it in the black market or have a relative in a capitalist country to send it to you.

Dont even get me started on education.

Happy to provide you more details and break the bubble you are leaving in.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#889

Post by Yawrehto »

cardanome wrote: post #848
Aunche wrote: post #827

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has been the the only major country sanctioning Cuba for a decade and a half, but the economy has only gotten worse. Sanctions may explain why they has lagged behind in tech. It doesn't explain why Cuba needs to import 70-80% of their food despite being a fertile tropical paradise. https://www.wfpusa.org/countries/cuba/#:~:text=Cuba%20import... .

> It doesn't explain why Cuba needs to import 70-80% of their food despite being a fertile tropical paradise. There have been famine and starvation before the communists took power. I don't think Cuba has ever been fully food self-sufficient. Not many countries are. Not to mention agriculture needs access to fertilizers which the sanctions make harder to get. The more important part from your source: > The largest is…

>If we compare Cuba to her peers in Latin America, especially Haiti...

Haiti has a complicating factor. After winning independence from France, France told Haiti to pay 'debt' back to France. In the end, it had to pay 112 million Francs, which is an amazing sum for a newly independent country, and I think that it's unique in history, a government demanding that exorbitant of a payment from a newly independent country. It took until 1947 for Haiti to finish paying, 122 years of payment. You can't get over that sort of thing easily.

Wikipedia has a good article on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_Independence_Debt. In another article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti) it's said that Haiti's debt is mostly from that demand.

That said, Cuba's life expectancy (Cuban GDP per capita: $7,486 or so, as of 2021) is equal to or greater than much wealthier countries, like Lithuania ($30,577), Oman ($46,574), Seychelles ($30,126), or Russia ($26,120). In 2020, its life expectancy surpassed the US! Cuba has consistently outperformed countries like Lithuania, Russia, and even the world in life expectancy (counting since 2000), all of which have much greater GDP per capita. See https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy and https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy-vs-gdp-pe....

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#890

Post by pyuser583 »

Aunche wrote: post #827
mfru wrote: post #760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After spending a couple weeks in Cuba it’s not hard to see why. Which is the consequence of being sanctioned into oblivion for decades by the global hegemon, much to the dislike of the entire rest of the world.

The US has been the the only major country sanctioning Cuba for a decade and a half, but the economy has only gotten worse. Sanctions may explain why they has lagged behind in tech. It doesn't explain why Cuba needs to import 70-80% of their food despite being a fertile tropical paradise. https://www.wfpusa.org/countries/cuba/#:~:text=Cuba%20import... .

Cuba’s attitude towards US sanctions is: “bring them on!”

Even before Castro came to power, Che Guevara planned in enacting extreme tariffs to keep American money out. He used 19th century American tariffs to justify this.

Cubas government is far more interested in maintaining control than opening up to trade.

They are willing to advertise to tourists, which brings in cash without shaking things up.

But they aren’t willing to make the adaptations international trade requires.

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