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Scrollbars are becoming a problem

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Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#881

Post by funcDropShadow »

kaba0 wrote: post #849
adevopsguy wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. The distro I am using lets me move windows by holding down Meta/Super key and left mouse button - anywhere in the window. Firefox is an example of how terrible it can get, see this screenshot: https://i.imgur.com/zs2wekv.png . To move this window I can either click to the left of the Firefox icon (to the left in image) or between the arrow down and minimize to the right.

I mean, what’s the alternative? Go back to Internet Explorer style windows, with 3 toolbars?

Yes, in Internet Explorer you could show and hide all those toolbars as you liked. So, you could adapt the application to your needs.

If my former self, that was forced to use Internet Explorer, would defend its UI in the future, it would rotate in the grave.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#882

Post by eviks »

> My friend, not everyone can use a scroll wheel or a swipe up touch screen.

My friend, a happy scroll-wheeler, you can also use your keyboard!

> they don’t wanna say “scroll down” over and over again or start auto scrolling and try to land in the right spot.

sure, they should be able to say "scroll down to 40%" and land around where they think the right spot is

(although completely agree that having no user configurability is a common UI crime, and also think minimaps are better)

> Buttons were not dependent on this. ... I don’t use these!

yes, because they are an abomination - a tiny precision UI element to perform a function that's much easier to accomplish with better keybind

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#883

Post by eviks »

codalan wrote: post #135

It's not just scrollbars. It's the elimination of window borders. Aside from not being able to differentiate one window from another similarly colored window in the background, it's nearly impossible to click and hold on anything along the edge to resize the window. It's the overloading of the title bar with so much shit like search boxes and extraneous buttons that a user has almost no place to grip to move the wind…

> it's nearly impossible to click and hold on anything along the edge to resize the window.

That might be the proper nudge to get rid of yet another old&persistent UI mistake - why do you need to hunt for a tiny border when you could, e.g., have some tap/hold key(combo) and have the resize border become as wide as ~1/3 of the window width?

(same thing with the title bar, a wide and tall box in the center should be more than enough)

> They threw out several decades of usability pioneered by real HID experts

Yeah, no, those experts were just as smart as the current "UI/UX morons", with tiny borders and tiny buttons highlighted in the post being the testament of their expertise

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#884

Post by eviks »

nine_k wrote: post #80
f33d5173 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's not much of a good reason to hide them. It looks nicer + you can just use the scroll wheel. A lot of the UI affordances lost over the last decade or two are unfortunate, but complaints about scroll bars seem to be purely baby duck syndrome.

It does not look nicer. It looks more mysterious. Where in the list am I? Is there anything below to scroll to? Above? To the right, everyone's favorite? And no, trying to scroll every control just to find this out is not my ideal of usability and comfort.

> Where in the list am I?

that information can be conveyed with a 1-pixel wide bar with proper color contrast, not requiring a waste of the whole scrollbar's width

Maybe this bright idea that information and control are separate things can inspire the future gen of UI designers to actually make this a reality

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#885

Post by toast0 »

fian wrote: post #869
NoGravitas wrote: post #740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Visual Studio actually puts the menubar in the titlebar; I never have any place to click left unless the window is maximized (or, at least, full width).

I'm ok with adding more functions to the titlebar, it's something I experimented with myself for a desktop app some 15 years ago. I found there was a heck of a lot of special behaviours tied to the titlebar and that overriding them meant a lot of work to fix edge cases like - being able to move windows. So I never followed through with it. Maybe the addition of dedicated Move button next to the minimise, maxmimise an…

If you need to use the move button, the move button needs to stay on screen. I may be the only one, but I regularly position windows partially off screen when I only need one side of the window and I don't have enough desktop space for the whole thing.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#886

Post by motoxpro »

codalan wrote: post #135

It's not just scrollbars. It's the elimination of window borders. Aside from not being able to differentiate one window from another similarly colored window in the background, it's nearly impossible to click and hold on anything along the edge to resize the window. It's the overloading of the title bar with so much shit like search boxes and extraneous buttons that a user has almost no place to grip to move the wind…

Contrary opinion apparently, but I almost NEVER nned to resize windows OR use the title bar. I'm glad I have the extra real estate to do things that I do most frequently.

If I need to switch window, I am on a mac so I can easily just use the content of the window to choose my program. Much faster than reading for me.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#887

Post by notSupplied »

rayiner wrote: post #175
codalan wrote: post #135

It's not just scrollbars. It's the elimination of window borders. Aside from not being able to differentiate one window from another similarly colored window in the background, it's nearly impossible to click and hold on anything along the edge to resize the window. It's the overloading of the title bar with so much shit like search boxes and extraneous buttons that a user has almost no place to grip to move the wind…

“Morons” is the right word. I don’t like to gratuitously shit on people doing their jobs. But what the hell? I can’t move a window anymore without clicking around like an idiot to figure out what’s part of the title bar and what’s a button. Every time I start “New Teams,” it asks me if I want to go back to Old Teams. If I open a PDF in New Teams from the file browser, it’s not obvious how to close the PDF without los…

Making things look pretty is very good for your portfolio and career. But making things usable usually means ugly.

Thin scrollbars and window borders are pretty. Mobile buttons with only icons but no text are pretty. Hiding functionality is pretty.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#888

Post by antonvs »

notSupplied wrote: post #887
rayiner wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Morons” is the right word. I don’t like to gratuitously shit on people doing their jobs. But what the hell? I can’t move a window anymore without clicking around like an idiot to figure out what’s part of the title bar and what’s a button. Every time I start “New Teams,” it asks me if I want to go back to Old Teams. If I open a PDF in New Teams from the file browser, it’s not obvious how to close the PDF without los…

Making things look pretty is very good for your portfolio and career. But making things usable usually means ugly. Thin scrollbars and window borders are pretty. Mobile buttons with only icons but no text are pretty. Hiding functionality is pretty.

> Hiding functionality is pretty

Going back a long way, this is what always bothered me about UI efforts in the Linux world like the Enlightenment window manager. It seemed like the very definition of “nice house, nobody home.”

The problem boils down to allowing aesthetics to dominate over functionality - form supersedes function. There are plenty of people happy to inflict that on others. I sometimes wonder what they use themselves.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#889

Post by stolsvik »

happymellon wrote: post #315
arcanemachiner wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did it because my computer was a POS. But then it turns out I have a minimalism kink, so I've been doing that ever since. I use XFCE btw

> I use XFCE btw No offense, but I cannot possibly trust your judgement when you use a DE that, by default, is the classic example of no window borders for the mouse to grab onto.

On many Linux DEs you have “Alt-drag” and “Alt-resize”. It is absolutely amazing, and luckily there are hacks to get that on Windows too.

Re: Scrollbars are becoming a problem

#890

Post by hi41 »

With Windows, I can’t tell which app I am looking at especially with browsers which look similar (chrome, edge). It’s hard to tell which application is highlighted in the task bar.
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