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Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

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Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#881

One shall not obsess with the game controller they use, I suppose, in their analysis, failing the controller wouldn't prevent the sub from resurfacing... It is symptomatic, however. The whole Silicon Valley is like that. You have the old guard, NASA, millions for fault analysis, rumors go the C code on some NASA rocket was certified at $1000 per line---human eyeballs reading it... All those start-ups and unicorns, th…

>> You have the old guard, NASA, millions for fault analysis, Like with most things, extremes in either direction is bad, I think there is a middle ground between using logitech controllers, and being sooo paralyzing on safety (or rather the bureaucracy of "Safety™") that not only do you never really get off the ground, but come full circle and a $0.50 o ring you failed to test in freezing conditions blows up your en…

Just a slight correction, the o-ring not being tested in freezing conditions wasn't an oversight that destroyed the challenger; the engineers knew that the o-ring hadn't been tested at that unusually low temperature and even suspected it could fail at those temperatures.

Management at Morton Thiokol and NASA disregarded those concerns because they had already scrubbed the launch several times.

Bureaucracy is forged from the furnace of past adversities.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#882
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Logitech has orders of magnitude more experience in manufacturing peripherals than Microsoft. That said, Logitech does make products in a wide price range and the low end isn't competitive with their own high end.

> Logitech has orders of magnitude more experience in manufacturing peripherals than Microsoft. You know that saying that anybody can build a bridge, but it takes an engineer to build a bridge that barely stands? From what I've seen and heard, Logitech has used their experience to make peripherals that barely last longer than the warranty/return period. FWIW my 22 year old optical intellimouse from Microsoft is still…

Well my G500s is working fine for last 10.

Also that controller is getting like 1/50th of use it would get under normal gamer so that's insanely weird detail to focus on.

I'd also imagine dropping ballast would need a controller in the first place.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#883

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I see correctly, the base of the screen is screwed to the hull? At least there is now less than the advertised 12.7 cm of carbon fibre composite at that point.

I had a similar thought. When I saw the monitors, I thought "How are they mounted to the hull? They wouldn't screw them into it...." well, it turns out they did.

Which is a bad idea in any sense. But then, looking at the pictures, I wouldn't dive deeper than a bathtub in that thing, even if I was paid 250k to do so. It looks like a carbon fiber tube with some clued on cameras, lights, propulsion and balast. Which is far, far from being a properly designed and engineered sub. Or boat. Or piece of furniture...

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#884

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really frustrated by anyone that poo-poos this specific issue. One shall absolutely fucking obsess, me for instance about the game controller they used. Look at this. https://i.imgur.com/FrdR7TP.png So the F710 Logitech gamepad was something I wouldn't even trust as a teenager to let me play emulated retro games accurately. It has a hardware switch to toggle between DirectInput (an ancient input technology within…

If I see correctly, the base of the screen is screwed to the hull? At least there is now less than the advertised 12.7 cm of carbon fibre composite at that point.

This picture shown down-thread looks like the inner chamber is not part of the outer hull: https://i.imgur.com/lBWlh3i.png

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#885

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As it's explained in another comment - the CEO wanted it tested but there isn't a facility anywhere on earth equipped to test it. Perhaps the argument then is that part of the company funding should have been building a custom rig designed for testing this highly custom 5 inch thick carbon fibre shell - but it's not like options to test it were available and were ignored.

This is not true either. As the submarine commander interviewed lays out, the testing is done by actual dives, and there is a certification body for it. Almost every other deep sea exploration submarine is certified. However, getting certified is voluntary. Of course, certifying it just means that independent experts take a look at the design and use sensors during dives. All of these vehicles are experimental. But n…

I suspect that certification is not going to be voluntary any more after this.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#886

You have to wonder why many migrants in Europe go missing at sea on rickety barges on a regular basis and they call off a few search boats in 24 hours. 5 Billionaires go missing on a rickety sub and multiple nations respond with everything they have. Double standards much?

Why in hell would they send out search boats at all? I can't fathom the stupidity it would take to help invaders invade your country.

And by the way, the vacation company will likely get a fat bill from the Coast Guards.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#887
post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fundamentally every risky decision is up to the individual. Even trusting the regulator is a decision (...). Therefore the final ‘responsibility’ for your safety is always personal, unless you were forced on board, or lied to about the construction. It seems you are trying to say something along the lines of: A. In cases where an individual has the freedom to make decisions (i.e. not coerced or manipulated) B. The…

I think A and B convey it pretty well. I'm not sure I understand your criticism. In this case, for (1) who else but the individuals decided to go on the expedition? Where is the lack of freedom? And what is the relevance of 2? Are you saying people are not responsible for their actions because they don't have perfect prediction power? Doesn't it follow that no-one is responsible for anything?

Regarding your last two questions: I don’t care for the binary framing. By framing these prescriptive questions as a matter of degree, we can get a lot further. I’d ask it this way:

To what degree is it reasonable to hold people to prescriptive standards given the presence of imperfect conscious awareness, limited volition, and constrained rationality?

When one keep these realities things in mind, it can challenge us to better talk about what we mean wrt accountability.

Some might suggest that “the buck stops” where free will begins. Such a statement requires a lot of unpacking.

I don’t have room to unpack even a small fraction of the ideas in play here. So I think I’ll end with a few things.

1. In the United States popular culture (for example) there is an assumed but unexamined belief in conscious free will. This does not hold up to philosophical nor scientific scrutiny.

2. Unfortunately, simplistic moral claims have a tendency to shift our thinking away from good analysis towards judgmentalism. Many people here on HN know how to reason under uncertainty wrt debugging or attack trees. That same level of rigor needs to be used when analyzing human behavior and ethics.

3. When I say accountability, I think analyzing it in a consequentialist way might be the most useful.

For example, if someone drives particularly dangerously and puts others at risk, some interventions are justified. The calculus can be very complicated, and some of the key data may not be known with sufficient confidence. But I do think there are core principles that apply. I would say the dangerous driver might “deserve” a license suspension, for example, not because they had the free will to do otherwise, but because of the consequences.

There are lots of interesting ways to understand dangerous driver scenarios.

A. Take the exact same person and compare their behavior while seated in 150 hp vehicle as compared to a 400 hp vehicle. The latter environment provides more temptation and more opportunity for dangerous driving. Is an individual who opts for the quicker car thus morally culpable to some degree? Or does does it depend upon their levelheadedness and driving skills?

B. In some sense, our entire infrastructure in history that led up to incentivizing automobiles is a huge factor in predicting behavior patterns, vehicle and pedestrian accidents and deaths, inefficient land use, and more. How much blame should we “dole out” particular individuals over the course of history that led us here?

C. In some situations, it could be argued that driving is immoral, particularly when you have other options for transportation. This is kind of a raw deal for the individual who had nothing to do with how we got stuck in such a situation. But it also demonstrates that some people may hold individuals morally responsible even though one person are only a tiny part of the situation. This highlights how individualism run amok and unscientific views of free will can sometimes sabotage comprehensive rational thinking about ethics. To speak very loosely when I see an accident on the road, it is easy to point to the proximate causes such as a distracted driver or worn out tires. But we must not overlook the deeper systemic causal factors. If we want to progress as a society, we need to solve problems, not scapegoat.

## My Take

An unexpected benefit of dispensing with free will is that judgmentalism doesn’t get in the way of solving problems.

In this view, we justly lock up criminals not because they could’ve done otherwise. We lock them up for the exact opposite reason: their brains and bodies make the unacceptable behavior a predictable pattern at some level.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#888

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really frustrated by anyone that poo-poos this specific issue. One shall absolutely fucking obsess, me for instance about the game controller they used. Look at this. https://i.imgur.com/FrdR7TP.png So the F710 Logitech gamepad was something I wouldn't even trust as a teenager to let me play emulated retro games accurately. It has a hardware switch to toggle between DirectInput (an ancient input technology within…

> This controller is a metaphor for something that needs to immediately be regulated so that people like this can never get away with it again. There is something to be said for protecting people who would sign up for such an experience while misjudging the risk, or assuming that some government agency does provide oversight. Though, customers seem to have been informed that this is not the case: https://twitter.com/…

[flagged]

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#889

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This controller is a metaphor for something that needs to immediately be regulated so that people like this can never get away with it again. There is something to be said for protecting people who would sign up for such an experience while misjudging the risk, or assuming that some government agency does provide oversight. Though, customers seem to have been informed that this is not the case: https://twitter.com/…

Sorry but that doesn't work in a reasonable society. You can't let just anyone do anything they want with the repercussions being 'they don't get rescued'. A few points: * You can't let rescue services decide who deserves to be rescued -- for so many obvious reasons it would be patronizing to list them * People with a lot of money and no sense can fuck things up on a massive scale if we let them do whatever they want…

That’s nonsense. “Reasonable society” has been building and using commercial submersibles going on nearly a century and suddenly, after less than half a dozen people die in a dumb vanity stunt, we suddenly need to create a suite of brand new regulations? Our legislators and regulators have much better things to spend their bandwidth on.

What’s next? Are we going to start patrolling for DSVUIs, breathalyzing submarine captains at random?

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#890
post #772

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one thing if your favourite video host or chatbot crashes, quite another if it's a self-driven car, airplane control software or, in this case, a submarine.

I'm not saying you should hack a sub from a scrap metal and just use it as is (which seems to have happened here). But you can rapidly iterate on your project to first make it functional and then gradually improve its reliability. What matters is not the process, but the result. For example, SpaceX are using iterative approach in their design and they now have the most reliable rocket in history.

"Most reliable rocket in history" that's a pretty bold statement when they have so few launches compared to Soyuz or Atlas V
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