Live data from Hacker News

What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

cspicenter.com

881–890 of 972 posts

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#881

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm simply pointing out that your three examples don't negate the fact that we have a system here that taken whole rewards and uplifts whiteness. White colonialism literally crafted the system that elevated those three non-white people. Do you think that that influence is not relevant just because those three people are not white?

Working in tech, I don't see a system that rewards and uplifts whiteness. Asians (both East and from the subcontinent) are greatly overrepresented relative to their fraction of the US population in SWE jobs. Their skin color was never a factor. Most of the ones I've worked with/interviewed, were hired due to merit, not the color of their skin. That richer and more well educated Indians are over-represented in tech jo…

> I don't see a system that rewards and uplifts whiteness.

What you see is little more than your own personal anecdote. Who are the voices centered in the conversations around funding? Why is it easier for some people to secure investment? Who is considered important in the conversations around what tech is developed and who is ignored? Who reaps the rewards and who shoulders the costs?

> with fewer resources

Think a little deeper: why were resources allocated in this way?

>How did that result in "uplifting whiteness"?

The people put in charge of these companies have little interest in critically examining the race and caste-based resource allocation mechanisms that helped to get them there.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#882

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but a black percentage of ~13%, which is actually exactly in line with the ratio of black americans to americans.

One of the biggest arguments for DEI is to undo the damage the US government and culture has done to it's own black citizens. I don't think filling a bunch of VP positions with highly qualified African immigrants does that.

A cynical person would think DEI was invented precisely because solving that would be hard but treating everyone the same by skin color allows for easier solutions such as simply importing non-aggrieved people to replace our marginalized ones.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#883
post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a group of Republican AG's that are suing public companies who do this. Along with DI&E investing, as it's not in the shareholders financial interest to invest in these thing, which is all that matters. So hopefully that will end these polcies.

I am not sure how legal argument can work unless you show that it breaks equal employment laws. DE&I actually is beneficial in many roles such as design, customer advocacy, sales, support, UX and so on. It helps achieve a better representation of population and diverse ideas in the group. Even for managerial roles, DE&I helpful to have representation for minorities at org level. So there are a lot of provable benefit…

This isn't meant to target hires. It's meant to target investments which fuels alot of this. It's complicated legal stuff, and i'm just an engineer, but I think they're tackling from the mindset of "If you didn't invest in this company because it's not diverse enough, but it met every other metric on the good investment scale, then the company doing the investment went against the goals of their shareholders(more $$). The idea is that alot of the companies doing this are doing it for investments from outside parties, so by removing that incentive it should stop it.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#884
post #759
post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What?? It is common for certain areas to be mostly populated by a certain demographic. Iceland: 93% ethnic Icelandic. Bolivia 88% Mestizo/Indigenous. Thailand 93% Buddhist. India 80% Hindu. Japan 98% ethnic Japanese. Nigeria 100% fast. Dive in to specific geographic areas within a country and it is often fully homogenous. https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/0…

Oh yeah, everyone in those countries are the same ethnicity, gender, the same relationship and family status, the same interests and personality type etc etc? Literally no diversity proponents are saying tech teams in Taiwan must have 20% African Americans or whatever and you'd have to be completely missing the point, or willfully missing it, to think so. In any case, it's pretty telling of your level of understandin…

Hi please reread. It was a reply to the comment about an all young white nerdy men team being bad because they are all white and male, saying "But they make horrible teams". Second, I used statistics, not opinion. You straw man with this "everyone in those countries are" followed by describing how no 2 people occupy the same space-time. Please read what a person writes and listen to what a person says rather than warping it to your need. Just wowy :D

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#885

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over 1B dollars in damage. https://www.axios.com/2020/09/16/riots-cost-property-damage

The article states that it’s spread over 20 states, which I think is an important caveat to note. Not that it isn’t still a large sum of money, but that it’s a far smaller sum in any given location. Especially important to note because my original comment was in reply to someone claiming that cities had burned to the ground. It’s an overstated claim that functions as a dog whistle.

Minnesota burned to the ground which is easy to find with any non-bias searching.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#886

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With Zoom interviews, it's possible to anonymize candidates throughout every stage of the interview process. Anonymous resumes, anonymous interviews. This would entirely eliminate racial, or gender, discrimination.

That would be true if people didn't sound different.

You can alter the audio signal to mask gender: https://blog.interviewing.io/we-built-voice-modulation-to-ma...

Similar tech could be used to mask accents.

I suspect the real reason people are so hesitant to anonymize interviews is that the disparities will persist - or even grow larger - and it'll be more difficult to ascribe it to racism or sexism.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#888
post #831

I shut my mouth at work and go along with this stuff because I have no choice. I have a family to take care of. I've accepted this. But man, why do they always throw in the line about striving to make the workplace a "diverse and inclusive culture where everyone can bring their full and authentic self"? Everyone knows that's a goddamn lie. I almost want to cry when I read that - it makes me so angry. I haven't been a…

I know the feeling. At my work, the leader has started calling us a family, and that we should be a family and treat each other like family and bring our authentic selves to work. I'm not a leader, I'm a mother to 2 children, a daughter to an immigrant blah blah blah. Fuck off with that bullshit. Doesn't anyone know what it means to be a professional any more? I don't care about your beliefs, as long as you come to w…

This might not apply to you, but it has helped me immensely to cut back spending money for pretty much anything. This means I get to work 70% or even less and still have a kids. I know it's not always easy, but there are people living very healthy and happy lives with minimum wage.

However I'm also aware that not everybody has that luxury, but I feel like most people have at least some options. Try to convice your boss that you can work 90% or something. Even getting rid partially of unhealthy work situations is a win.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#889
post #837
post #747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"we" is clearly referring to the history of the U.S., the history which has led to you having a cushy, high-paying desk job doing whatever you do, and which has led to an enormous under-representation of black people in the workplace. You don't get to ignore the history that has led to the life you currently live just because Genghis Khan burned down your (great)^30th ancestor's village. It has nothing to do with tha…

> history which has led to you having a cushy, high-paying desk job doing whatever you do So when a white person gets a high-paying job, it's because of history of slavery. If a black person gets a high-paying job, it's because they worked hard. Did I get that right? No wonder Trump got elected when this is the agenda. > You don't get to ignore the history that has led to the life you currently live just because Geng…

> So when a white person gets a high-paying job, it's because of history of slavery. If a black person gets a high-paying job, it's because they worked hard. Did I get that right?

Not quite. I said "led to", not "because", and everything that happens today was "led to" by history, including a black person getting a high-paying job. Remember this was all in response to this rather amazing comment:

> My ancestors were thousands of miles away from US territory when slavery happened ... and yet you're saying I'm supposed to pay the price for your crimes just because of my skin color.

You're using "my" and "we" to mean "me and my particular ancestors" and "you and your ancestors", whereas the person you were replying to was very clearly using "we" to mean "the history of all of humanity". The latter acknowledges reality as it is right now and the events leading up to it, and the former relies on some magical inheritance of responsibilities depending on your blood ancestors.

> So Genghis Khan has nothing to do with that. But slavery has everything to do with that.

Again you're ignoring the point. Both of these events led to the world as it is today, and neither of us is more responsible for them than the other. Your ancestors, my ancestors: that has nothing to do with it. And you're the one who started out assigning blame and "why should I pay!?" based on whose ancestors are whose. Affirmative action proponents are not doing that. They're looking at the situation as it currently exists right now and trying to make it better. We can debate whether their particular approach works or not, but we can not say "it's not my problem because of who my ancestors are".

(That's not even mentioning the fact that Genghis Khan died in 1227 and there are people alive today whose grandparents were born slaves.)

> To me "optimal" is the minimum amount of effort that leads to maximum results. E.g. if you get enough resumes by posting a job on your website you don't need to put extra effort to find more candidates.

So your definition of "optimal" is wrong, in any reasonably complex situation. What if your job posting was written poorly and all your applicants thought the job was something a little different? They could literally all be mis-qualified for the job, and you'd never have the opportunity to realize there are much better candidates out there. That's an example of "systemic bias" that prevents optimal outcomes. If you suddenly realize your job posting was crap and your candidate pool is sub-par because of it, you should take some affirmative actions to fix it, rather than spend "the minimum amount of effort."

Can we think of any other systemic biases like that, that prevent optimal outcomes? Any at all? Like, oh, I don't know, race discrimination?

> 1. How should countries with homogenous skin color deal with history of slavery?

By learning about it and understanding its effects on their society today? The same way I'm suggesting the U.S. does?

> 2. Should we exclude Nigerian Americans from DIE / affirmative action policies, because they are doing better than average American?

I don't agree with all the ways DIE / affirmative action are practiced today. I agree with many of the criticisms levied against it in this comment thread. Many other criticisms sound like they're rooted in the fundamental idea of "racism is natural/historical/OK and I'm racist for saying so, you're racist for disagreeing". I'd rather have DIE / affirmative action as we have right now than nothing, and certainly than whatever world you imagine where we (humanity) can essentially bully another group of humans for centuries, and then when we realize that actually doesn't lead to optimal outcomes in society, we shove them back down again anyway in some sunk-cost fallacy in order to avoid those nasty uncomfortable feelings of shame, regret, and blame (which have nothing to do with it anyway).

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#890

The current U.S. Supreme Court, though perhaps more ideologically bent than I'd like on many other issues, is certainly well poised to start slapping down some of these policies which brazenly dance on the wrong side (gray area at best) of Civil Rights law.

The problem is that they aren’t doing anything blatantly illegal. And discrimination is hard to prove. This is not a new game in America - we’ve been playing it since the 60’s at least and now we’re just playing the same game by another name. I had someone tell me I was not eligible to apply for a position because it was only open to women. That’s blatant, but it’s word of mouth. There is no way for me to prove that conversation ever happened.
Post reply on HN