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Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

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Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#881

Post by csa »

tomatowurst wrote: post #577
outlace wrote: post #470

I used to be against standardized tests, but I grew up as a low-income minority in a single-parent household and I ended up getting into good schools pretty much only due to my high test scores, which has been a life changer. Other than test scores, I couldn't afford to do any fancy extra-curriculars. It felt a lot more achievable to know I can change my life if I just focus and do well on a test than it would if I h…

what do you think about people who claim standardized test is systematic racism? standardized test is the only way to measure somebody on their aptitude for doing well like the LSAT. yet somehow asian americans being discriminated at ivy leagues even with good standardized test score is not seen as systematic racism.

> yet somehow asian americans being discriminated at ivy leagues even with good standardized test score is not seen as systematic racism.

People throw this out as though it is fact, when in reality:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Fair_Admissions...

“In October 2019, Judge Allison D. Burroughs ruled that Harvard College's admissions policies do not unduly discriminate against Asian Americans.”

“In February 2020, SFFA filed an appeal in the United States Court of Appeals for the First Circuit. The court heard oral arguments in mid-2020 and ultimately ruled in late 2020 in favor of Harvard, concluding that Judge Burroughs had not erred in her ruling and major factual findings.”

Elite admissions is more than great grades and great standardized test scores. Some folks may not like the fact that this is true, but that doesn’t make it less true, and it doesn’t (necessarily) make it racist.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#882

Post by devwastaken »

outlace wrote: post #470

I used to be against standardized tests, but I grew up as a low-income minority in a single-parent household and I ended up getting into good schools pretty much only due to my high test scores, which has been a life changer. Other than test scores, I couldn't afford to do any fancy extra-curriculars. It felt a lot more achievable to know I can change my life if I just focus and do well on a test than it would if I h…

Using that as a metric for society is exactly why we have out of control poverty, drug abuse, and homelessness.

If you were able to get good grades in school it wasn't because of your efforts, as a child and teen your brain is largely programmed by the community and environment you grow in. There are no gifted children, only those with educated parents that started early. This is becoming an ever more common theme, especially of kids with teachers for parents whom make too little yet know the systems enough to know exactly how to get their kid past the trite systems created for class warfare.

The solution is to defund universities and stop this elitist nonsense. Just like COVID has shown we don't need to show up to the office, we don't need universities either. We are a better society without their control and political agendas. There is little of value that isn't better done by a YouTube video today.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#883

Post by csa »

biohacker85 wrote: post #712
tomatowurst wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what do you think about people who claim standardized test is systematic racism? standardized test is the only way to measure somebody on their aptitude for doing well like the LSAT. yet somehow asian americans being discriminated at ivy leagues even with good standardized test score is not seen as systematic racism.

I've asked similar questions to people who hold this view of "standardized testing is racist". While I never got a direct answer, I could infer or "read between the lines" that they are not oblivious to the seemingly glaring contradiction to some of their solutions to racism, its just that when it comes to equality--the ends justify the means. Groups whom have previously enjoyed privilege with college admissions (whi…

> I've asked similar questions to people who hold this view of "standardized testing is racist"

The most defensible explanation that folks who claim standardized tests are racist is that the range of scores are not approximately equal across races. In theory, a “fair” non-racist test would have similar ranges of scores for all races.

There are a lot of assumptions baked into the argument, many with which I disagree, but it’s an interesting idea.

Much of the data supports the idea that most of the differences in test scores are due to socio-economic status. When SES is controlled for, everything else (like race) just has a minor impact on scores

Iirc, race is the largest contributor to variance when SES is controlled for, but folks within the same SES perform much more similarly than same race folks in different SESes.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#884

Post by thenanyu »

csa wrote: post #881
tomatowurst wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what do you think about people who claim standardized test is systematic racism? standardized test is the only way to measure somebody on their aptitude for doing well like the LSAT. yet somehow asian americans being discriminated at ivy leagues even with good standardized test score is not seen as systematic racism.

> yet somehow asian americans being discriminated at ivy leagues even with good standardized test score is not seen as systematic racism. People throw this out as though it is fact, when in reality: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Fair_Admissions... “In October 2019, Judge Allison D. Burroughs ruled that Harvard College's admissions policies do not unduly discriminate against Asian Americans.” “In Februa…

Judge Burroughs was wrong. The Supreme Court will overturn, especially given the explicit promise by (likely to be confirmed) Justice Jackson to abstain.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#885

Post by throw_m239339 »

smokey_circles wrote: post #879

America deserves to go downhill if this seems like a good idea. Standardized testing is a joke. There are other, better forms of tests. See: Europe

> Standardized testing is a joke. There are other, better forms of tests. See: Europe

Europe isn't a country.

France has BAC and BEPC and plenty of other forms of standardized tests at every step of its education system, as a requirement to integrate highschool or college. Same in Spain or Germany. If anything most countries in Europe have a more conservative approach when it comes to candidate selection: strict standardized tests.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#886

Post by team_bacon »

outlace wrote: post #470

I used to be against standardized tests, but I grew up as a low-income minority in a single-parent household and I ended up getting into good schools pretty much only due to my high test scores, which has been a life changer. Other than test scores, I couldn't afford to do any fancy extra-curriculars. It felt a lot more achievable to know I can change my life if I just focus and do well on a test than it would if I h…

Bingo. I came from an economically challenged background with a very chaotic family life. Grades were impossible to keep up let alone extra curricular activities. Tests were how I was able to demonstrate my academic potential.

I gamed the SAT by "studying". It took an SAT book checked out from the library and a few hours of practice. The SAT is not particularly hard for a bright student of any background that puts some effort into it. And these days there are more free resources available than ever before.

I get the feeling policies to remove standardized tests are set by those who have no idea what real intelligence and achievement is.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#887

Post by plibither8 »

sn41 wrote: post #790
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial…

Your take is very strange, and does not correspond to the Indian immigrant experience from what I have seen. I spent 10 years in the US, and the really weird part is how stridently Indian parents would push their kids to train in Indian culture - particularly classical dance like Bharatanatyam and Carnatic classical. Of course, since Westerners have hardly even heard about these cultural forms, these do not even exis…

> It is easier to have your own way as an Indian middle-class student in India than as second generation Indians in the US.

Being an Indian middle-class student in India myself, I'm not sure you understand the level of privilege from which you're making that statement.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#888

Post by barry-cotter »

Dig1t wrote: post #672
rayiner wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. That is not to say that I think only test scores should matter. But the kinds of extracurriculars colleges value—in particular that they don’t value having a job or working in the farm—smacks of old money ideals.

Valuing something like breadth of experience and being a well rounded person might be considered one of the things that makes a western style education as good as it is. Compared to other types of university systems, for example the one in India which is extremely concerned with test scores and performance metrics, many people would consider the western one to be better (including many people in India who try to come…

What's this Western education system of which you speak? Among Western nations the US is unique in how much emphasis it puts on extracurriculars and character. We know why that is too. The system arose as a smoke screen around Jewish quotas. The overwhelming majority of universities admit students on the basis of results of blind marked exams and nothing else. I'm by no means an expert but the usual examples given of exceptions, Oxford, Cambridge and ENA are looking for academic brilliance, not aristocratic polish ("well roundedness").

Western systems vary a lot in their degree of specialisation too. By 16, after the GCSEs the UK is done with being a generalist. Pick 3 or 4 A-Levels of your choice and if you feel like doing Math, Further Math and Physics or three sciences and Maths no one will stop you in the name of "well roundedness".

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#889

Post by tomatowurst »

MichaelApproved wrote: post #793
tomatowurst wrote: post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so ivy league discrimination of asian american applicants despite high standardized test scores is very much a published statistic one that is often met with emotional fervor by groups that seek to continue it. Just my observation as an outsider looking into America. Often sensitive debates that don't follow a certain mainstream narrative are brushed off as strawman or whataboutism. I'm just seeing this…

People who claim “ standardized test is systematic racism ” are not necessarily the same people who think “ asian americans being discriminated at ivy leagues even with good standardized test score is not seen as systematic racism. ” You are taking two different points of views which are made by two different groups, reducing their arguments down to practically nothing, and pretending they’re being made by the same g…

You are trying to argue that the people who claim standardized test is systematic racism is meritocracy and against affirmative action. Then following your logic, the people who aren't claiming standardized test is systematic racism is anti-meritocracy and pro affirmative action.

Yet the standard test does not differentiate the race of the test taker. If race was factored into the test scores somehow then what you are claiming makes sense, but the SAT/LSAT/MCAT/PCAT do not, cannot know the race or socioeconomic status of the test taker because as society we benefit from placing people of merit, who have the aptitude.

Are you comfortable with a lawyer/doctor who is responsible for you because they fit a certain affirmative action profile but scored low on their aptitude test and low gpa to meet a certain quota for that demographic group vs someone who were hired because of their high score on standardized aptitude test and consequently high gpa (that does not discriminate the test taker based on their race or socioeconomic class)?

Would you trust the latter or former if it meant your life/bank account depended on it and is it racism if you do not choose the former?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#890

Post by devwastaken »

agar wrote: post #723
outlace wrote: post #470

I used to be against standardized tests, but I grew up as a low-income minority in a single-parent household and I ended up getting into good schools pretty much only due to my high test scores, which has been a life changer. Other than test scores, I couldn't afford to do any fancy extra-curriculars. It felt a lot more achievable to know I can change my life if I just focus and do well on a test than it would if I h…

This thread is filled with people arguing false dichotomies: "test scores" vs. "fancy extra-curriculars" or "rich experiences" vs. "working class experiences." I recently saw one child into college, and have another on the way. I've spoken to many admissions officers, counselors, and similar folks making admissions choices for public and private universities. To a one, they all claim to be looking for two things: (1)…

They're saying the lines they're paid to say the same as an oil exec is paid for theirs. There is a significant amount of profit being made in higher education, yet look at your statements right there - they're looking for people whom are willing to slave themselves.

It's discriminatory and a massive waste of resources. We have to do away with these institutions to build something that actually meets the needs of today. But given government is involved i doubt it ever will.

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