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The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

vanityfair.com

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Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#881
post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The strong sentiment that it couldn't have come from the lab was suspicious from day one. It was not even allowed to be a consideration. Also, here on this forum, I was downvoted for saying it shouldn't be ruled out that the lab might be the source.

I think the article mentione one of the reasons: " When Trump himself floated the lab-leak hypothesis last April, his divisiveness and lack of credibility made things more, not less, challenging for those seeking the truth."

Its a great example of how blinding ideology and partisan politics is.

For people who did not have their identity tied to either political side, the lab leak theory was always an obvious possibility.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#882

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I quoted this bit in another comment, but Steven Quay (interviewed by the US gov as mentioned in tfa) The “engineered” comments refer to common amino acid sequences from lab practices, they leave a signature because ordinary biology is more random. The gene sequence for the amino acids in the furin site in CoV-2 uses a very rare set of two codons, three letter words so six letters in a row, that arerarely used indivi…

Perspective on the rarity of the CGG pair: https://twitter.com/K_G_Andersen/status/1391507272887455746 Basically, it's somewhat rare but not wildly so. FCoV has an RR pair, the first is coded as CGG, and the second as CGA, a difference of one base pair.

I grant it's totally possible for this to occur naturally, at random (thank you, genetics) -- but when we haven't found any intermediate host animals and there's a lab at the outbreak location that:

    Developed chimeric SARS-like coronaviruses
    Conducted ’dangerous’ gain-of-function research on the SARS-CoV-1 virus, some of which had been funded by the US government (Asia Times)
    Established a 96.2% match with SARS-CoV-2 and a virus they sampled from a cave over 1,000 miles away from Wuhan
    Injected live piglets with bat coronaviruses as recently as July 2019
    Published a paper on a close descendant of SARS-CoV-1, MERS-CoV, in November 2019
    Was hiring researchers to work on bat coronaviruses as recently as November 2019
You have to imagine the very real possibility that it was just an accident.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#883
Did the zoonotic origin story have a favored political party in the US? Who even introduced it?

I wish Trump had never commented on this stuff at all. I feel like what that did is take advantage of people's rage over Trump to sell them facts that they would have never otherwise bought.

Not everything is political, contrary to that foolish saying. I think politics ruins everything it touches, like Midas, except it turns everything to trash.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#884

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's been highlighted of the FOIA released emails so far suggests he didn't know if his NIAID was funding Wuhan Institute of Virology SARS type coronavirus gain of function experiments, but he was quite concerned that might be the case. Look for the one where he tells someone to keep his cell phone on. It's something he'd likely be concerned about, because he's been a big booster of gain of function research, and t…

The email trail is damning. Fauci knew that the possibility was there. Instead of pushing for discovery and transparency of what actually happened, he publicly and vehemently denied the possibility and gave fuel to those who wanted to call the "lab leak theory" people "conspiracy nuts". Fauci's elevation to sainthood was way too premature. His constant media appearances where he hasn't been questioned on any of this…

I don't think anyone thought Avenatti had any substance to him.

Nice try and trying to equate Fauci with Avenatti - please return to the cable Fox hole which you emerged from.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#885

It’s crazy to me how many people on even this forum, a place purportedly of science, continue to dismiss a lab leak origin out of hand citing it as some sort of crackpot theory. The serious questions raised in this article have been around since last April but it’s only now it’s even allowed to talk about them on digital forums. Excellent write up by Vanity Fair.

Here's what I remember from that time period. My recollection is that the wet market hypothesis fell out of favor rather quickly, but nothing else really emerged in its place. The lab leak theory was circulating, but amongst people such as rank-and-file scientists, the attitude was: We aren't going to get a straight answer about this, but we've got to defeat this virus. I don't remember dismissing the lab leak theory…

> Looking back in hindsight, I wonder how we could have picked out the lab leak theory as being worthy of consideration, given the context. And whether a more scientifically minded public and government would have faced that dilemma.

By actually considering the idea based on the information available, rather than judging solely on the messenger. Things we've known for most of the past year now:

* The wet-market was likely not the origin of the outbreak. Earliest identified positive cases predate the market outbreak and have no connection with it.

* The lab in question was very near to the wet market where the largest outbreak occurred.

* The lab in question specifically researched coronaviruses in bats.

* The closest match to the SARS-COV-2 virus we've found in bats in nature are bats that live over a 1000 kilometers away from Wuhan. However, these bats are among those being researched at the virology lab there.

* The lab in question was the subject of concern among international inspectors years before the outbreak, who stated that they believed the lab didn't meet necessary safety and containment protocols, and didn't have the staff to do so.

* US intelligence agencies have been signalling that the Chinese government has been covering up the origins of the lab.

* The CCP themselves have demonstrated that they are actively working against the discovery of the origins of the disease. Soon after the wet-market outbreak, they closed the wet-market, prevented any international scientists and experts from examining it, and over their objections, purged all animals there and sanitized the entire place, making it impossible to determine what might have led to an outbreak at the market. They also cracked down internally on whistleblowers who said the situation in Wuhan early in the pandemic was much worse than being broadcasted. Finally, they have simultaneously insisted on the natural origin of the virus, while also pushing theories that it originated from non-Chinese sources, such as China, South Asian pangolin black market traders, and the US Army.

* The CCP prevented WHO investigators from actually entering the country to look for origins of the virus for nearly a year, didn't give them full access when they arrived, and the resulting report was declared largely useless by the international community immediately upon its release.

* All people claiming that the lab-leak theory had been "debunked" were actually referring to the theory that it was genetically engineered, which is not the same thing at all.

None of this proves a lab leak, but its strong enough circumstantial evidence that it is at least as plausible as any other origin. Virtually the only new information to have come out is that some of the workers in the lab got sick with Covid-like symptoms in November.

If you swapped China with the US and this lab with the CDC, people would have taken it far more seriously. Imagine a worldwide pandemic started down the street from the CDC in Atlanta, Georgia, AND no one could find the origin of the virus but the closest match was in an animal native to Northern Ohio, AND that animal also happened to be at the CDC for studying the type of virus in question, AND whistleblowers had mentioned concerns about procedures there previously, AND the US government did everything in their power to prevent people from investigating. People would have zeroed in on the theory from day 1.

There was always plenty of reason to see it as worthy of consideration, and for those who weren't judging solely based on "Does Trump think this is true or not", they did. The biggest reason it wasn't was solely due to the fact that our media/social media can't function outside the scope of our current political/cultural wars. Information is being judged less and less on its own merits, and more and more on who is providing it.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#886

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s another symptom of the same disease. People have an idea that “trust the experts” can replace all the messy, gross, and often wrong processes we have developed to deal with the fact nobody can be trusted. Trusting scientists involved in gain of function research will neutrally investigate the origins of the pandemic is one manifestation of that conceit. So is trusting fact checkers and review panels to decide…

There is a problem though. Without access to source material of any real journalist (not a reporter) you have no way of knowing whether whatever they're saying is true. Marketplace of ideas is just measuring the average of views at best and fringe views may on occasion be valid, or not. It is also gameable by promoting "truthy" or plausible explanations with no data behind them. In this case, it is irrelevant what th…

"In this case, it is irrelevant what the source of the pandemic was ..."

...

"Leak of a natural or modified virus would be just as bad. Same if it's from consumption of rare animals sent from remote places or research on the samples from them."

I disagree.

I actually think "lab leak" is better and more optimistic news than a natural outgrowth or animal consumption, etc.

Lab leaks are a problem we can fix - probably without too much trouble. They don't represent a fundamental problem with accelerating globalization, urbanization and travel.

On the other hand, a natural origin or a human-animal crossing due to animal husbandry in or near urban areas ... or "bush meat" consumption ... those vectors could indicate that globalization, urbanization and travel have crossed a threshold where events such as this become likely and will recur regularly.

Given the relatively recent emergence of SARS and MERS, I have been fearful that our very connected, urbanized and globalized world (which I enjoy greatly) is at risk.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#888

When Trump himself floated the lab-leak hypothesis last April, his divisiveness and lack of credibility made things more, not less, challenging for those seeking the truth. Right, it's Trump's fault that the media and political opposition acted like children in opposing every word that came out of his mouth. Apply that logic to your favorite left-leaning politician: "The fact that Obama was always a natural born citi…

And the villagers were the ones to blame in "the boy who cried wolf".

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#889
post #2

This is the most shocking article I have ever read in my life. I'd ask everyone to please read it because it is incredible. One thing I did not realize is that US researchers who conducted gain of function research tried to downplay and discredit the possibility of the virus originating from the wuhan lab. There was an anti-lab theory Lancet statement signed by scientists, and "Daszak had not only signed but organize…

What is even more shocking is that the mass media and big tech have done everything to keep this covered. Most of the revelations are nothing new if you read alternative news sources where true journalism still exists. Big tech and mass media are now more like China state television, they decide what and how to tell you something based on what they want you to believe. The greatest threat of our times is not the Coro…

Wow you really went there: Big tech and mass media is the same as China state TV? Do you even know anything about China State TV?

You realize everything you said was anecdotal without any shred of evidence. And infowars and its cohorts don't qualify as evidence.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#890

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which other Coronaviruses have a furin cleavage site using arginine? Which other coronaviruses even have arginine in their proteome?

Why would coronaviruses not have arginine?

Sorry, I was being hasty (replying in too many locations to produce a good and thoughtful response -- instead I produced a factually incorrect one)

Damns my credibility a bit, doesn't it? Well, I should have more accurately mentioned that the FCS insertion (CT CCT CGG CGG G (PRRA)) Is rather unusual by betacoronavirus standards in that arginine is not typically coded as CGG (~5% of the time), and that RR coded for as CGG-CGG has not been seen in any betacoronavirus to date.

I have more in another comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27393013

But my quality quotient on this thread has been all over the place. Probably too invested in getting people to consider the possibility of the lab leak as most probable until we see an animal population to prove the natural hypothesis.

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