Labor shortage or terrible jobs? • Hacker News Board

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#881

Post by tnzm » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:46 PM UTC

deburo wrote: post #618

blihp wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 10% margin also often doesn't tell the whole story of how they make their money. Nearly since its inception, a substantial portion of McDonald's long term profit came from the appreciation of the real estate the stores were built on. Operating a business on it just made it cash flow positive during the holding period. So it was essentially a REIT that happened to operate a fast food chain. Even for many mom-and-pop…

>If they honestly can't afford to pay a living wage It's not logical to kill businesses by arbitrarily raising the minimum wage. Do you think the people they employ are better off not working at all? These people may not have a decent enough salary, but they get to work as opposed to staying at home and degenerate (mentally and physically). I always thought the better solution is to help them financially in other way…

>but they get to work as opposed to staying at home and degenerate (mentally and physically)

That's a disgusting thing to say.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#882

Post by selimthegrim » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #718

selimthegrim wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's only 3 or 400 this go around.

The link I provided says $600 through July 31. It dropped to $300 in Jan, then was brought back up in March.

I believe it is out of date. Manchin kept it down.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#883

Post by bayesian_horse » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

ItsMonkk wrote: post #848

onion2k wrote: post #746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of some businesses closing because they can't afford a higher minimum wage has to be considered in the context of every business that can afford the higher wage improving the lives of their minimum wage staff. Maybe it is worthwhile killing some businesses, and pushing some people to get new jobs or to live on benefits, if the wage increase for others is a greater benefit to society. Its also worth noting th…

This is something that is quite nuanced that isn't apparent until you really look into the numbers. When something happens that universally makes the labor costs go up, and you expect for many businesses to go into the black, what you will instead see is that the very worst company goes out business and all of the others will put pressure on their land owner for lower rents pointing out that they are next. The landow…

No, higher minimum wage shouldn't increase the labor cost "universally". Most of the cost increase would be felt by those employers who actually paid wages below the new limit. Which isn't even that great a portion of the economy.

There might be some effect diffusing upwards, but I doubt it.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#884

Post by pnutjam » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #450

pnutjam wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but I think you absolutely have to give reasons to create a subclass. People do not need to explain why they should be treated the same.

How is paying a teenager to sweep a floor making a subclass? Seems like we're on a trajectory to replace that teenager with a vacuum drone, and I don't see as many teenagers employed in that world. The wealthy wouldn't notice. Their teenagers are entrepreneuring and racking up unpaid volunteer hours to pad resumes. The teenagers with jobs are the ones that could use the money.

It's pretty asinine to pretend these entry level jobs teach anyone anything. Let it be automated.

The kids that are hard-working and poor will find something else to do. You don't have a right to exploit kids.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#885

Post by pnutjam » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #458

pnutjam wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you feel about kids saving for or working while attending college? It's pretty rich to say people don't deserve money when they need it.

I worked while attending college. I suspect the supply of those jobs will be affected, meaning marginally employable youth will just be unemployed.

But they are supposed to pay for an ever increasing tuition bill with 1990's minimum wage?

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#886

Post by tnzm » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

varispeed wrote: post #852

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #772

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly how it works in many european countries, especially the ones without a legal minimum wage (Austria for example), so people working "slave" gig jobs (cleaners, delivery, construction and hospitality workers, etc.) where if they earn below a certain "livable' threshold, get various tax credits, subsidies and benefits from the government to reach that "livable" threshold, which, while it sounds good, it c…

What strikes me as weird is that parties that call themselves left-wing opt for this kind of hand outs without realising they are in fact subsidising the rich with workers' money. How this can fly?

Left and right wings belong to the same vulture.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#887

Post by JackFr » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

blihp wrote: post #665

deburo wrote: post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If they honestly can't afford to pay a living wage It's not logical to kill businesses by arbitrarily raising the minimum wage. Do you think the people they employ are better off not working at all? These people may not have a decent enough salary, but they get to work as opposed to staying at home and degenerate (mentally and physically). I always thought the better solution is to help them financially in other way…

If raising the minimum wage will do them in, they're already halfway there if things are really [1] that dire and will end up there soon enough. So yes, people are better off not working for those types of businesses. If a business can only remain solvent by paying unreasonably low wages, it puts downward wage pressure on competing businesses and traps unskilled workers in a labor pool of dead-end jobs with little ho…

> [1] I'm suspicious of the majority of cases where this claim is made. A rational business person would see that such a business is already marginal and that they would likely be better off shutting it down and redeploying the capital elsewhere for a better return.

Now do family farms.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#888

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:12 PM UTC

ItsMonkk wrote: post #848

onion2k wrote: post #746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of some businesses closing because they can't afford a higher minimum wage has to be considered in the context of every business that can afford the higher wage improving the lives of their minimum wage staff. Maybe it is worthwhile killing some businesses, and pushing some people to get new jobs or to live on benefits, if the wage increase for others is a greater benefit to society. Its also worth noting th…

This is something that is quite nuanced that isn't apparent until you really look into the numbers. When something happens that universally makes the labor costs go up, and you expect for many businesses to go into the black, what you will instead see is that the very worst company goes out business and all of the others will put pressure on their land owner for lower rents pointing out that they are next. The landow…

> Higher labor costs makes real estate prices go down.

Well, it might by your argument make commercial rents, and thus commercial prices, go down. But it also means more money chasing the median residential unit (whether rent or purchase), so it should increase residential prices. Absent zoning constraints, that would seem to encourage shifting from commercial to residential land use

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#889

Post by malandrew » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

nbardy wrote: post #773

blihp wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 10% margin also often doesn't tell the whole story of how they make their money. Nearly since its inception, a substantial portion of McDonald's long term profit came from the appreciation of the real estate the stores were built on. Operating a business on it just made it cash flow positive during the holding period. So it was essentially a REIT that happened to operate a fast food chain. Even for many mom-and-pop…

This is why its hard to start a restaurant. You need to be rich enough to own the land.

Yup, if you don't then your landlord gets all the value. You get a 10 year lease, build a successful restaurant (if you make it past the dreaded first year) and then when your lease expires your successful restaurant has helped increase the land value in the area and the margin you worked up to evaporates when you sign a new 10-year lease that is more expensive because the value of the land has gone up (partly due to your success).

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#890

Post by JackFr » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

This is a call for UBI that unnecessarily demonizes low skill employers. There is a great human dignity argument for UBI. Demonizing employers who won’t take a negative return by paying employees more than the value they generate isn’t a good way to get there.