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Stripe bans Trump campaign

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Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#881

Post by thewindowmovie5 »

trustfundbaby wrote: post #279

I was on the fence about this, but reading the comments convinced me it was the absolute right decision. The fact that all these institutions just allowed this horrible hateful speech for four years, in the name of free speech etc, despite all the harassment, harm (mental and otherwise) it caused to so many people in America actually emboldened so many to the extent that now that they crossed this invisible line, the…

Trying to engage with the MAGA crowd has been an exercise in futility. Despite no evidence of election fraud on the scale that would overturn the result and every institution in the country asserting the election was free and fair, they refuse to accept it. When they do not act in good faith, incite violence and commit terrorist activity - I think these actions, which were the last resort, is the only sane thing to do.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#882

Post by mjevans »

awb wrote: post #577
mjevans wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We make people take a test to drive. People should have to take a Civics based test to vote. If someone wants to vote but fails the civics test, they should then immediately qualify for a minimum living wage job to go back to public education and get paid for getting at least an 80% grade at whatever grade level they're working at (obviously with either enrollment at lower grade levels, classification as disability i…

> People should have to take a Civics based test to vote The problem is what grade level? 1st grade: What country do you live in? 3rd grade: Name all 3 branches of government 6th grade: How is a bill made into a law? 9th grade: Who are your elected representatives and what are their positions on issues A, B & C? ... PhD: Compare and contrast Hamilton and Jefferson's viewpoints on the Constitutional convention, bankin…

This is implicit in the continued public education (as a job) requirement of suspending the voting rights; whatever a current public education consists of. Thus they might have to train up to, at least during the initial test, currently, what a high-school civics test final would be. During the time in (comprehensive) public education that would also be a job they are paid a living wage for. I view (non-broken-window) investment in civel infrastructure as a net good; this includes the education of the people and each individual person.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#883

Post by thewindowmovie5 »

slg wrote: post #740
roenxi wrote: post #736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There were gallows, bombs, armour, zip ties and guns brought to the protest. How many guns, bombs and zip ties? Was it even enough protestors to be called a minority who bought bombs? The press would love a few photos of people with guns storming the capital, because those that I've seen look like very poorly behaved tourists with souvenirs and selfies. Gallows happen to be a traditional prop at protests (eg, [0]).…

>How many guns, bombs and zip ties? Was it even enough protestors to be called a minority who bought bombs? Stop and take a second to listen to yourself. Is there an acceptable numbers of guns, bombs, and zip ties that are intended to be used on the leaders of this country?

I doubt you are going to convince the parent poster with facts. The comment suggests either the poster is not asking questions in good faith or letting opinions cloud the judgement. As one other comment mentioned - you are bringing facts to an emotional fight. If all the facts and evidence over past few years cannot convince them, nothing will.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#884

Post by sjwright »

skzv wrote: post #140
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #95

There is a difference between bank accounts, Visa/MasterCard access and Internet service, on one hand, and App Stores, Twitter accounts and payment providers, on the other hand. The First Amendment promises both free speech and free assembly. Core to the latter is the freedom not to assemble. This freedom is regulated. You can’t refuse to do business with protected classes. But political affiliation is not a protecte…

> But political affiliation is not a protected class. Classes that are protected now, were not protected at some point. I think the discussion revolves not around whether political affiliation is a protected class, but whether it should be, in a sense- whether what is going on is good or bad for society, not whether or not it is illegal. You are entitled to believe that it is good, of course.

Most people will insist that their politics is an ostensibly intellectual exercise—thereby refuting the argument for it being a protected class.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#885

Post by grej »

nobody9999 wrote: post #563
imperio59 wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I buy this argument as the law currently stands, but this is also such a moral double standard (Colorado bakery for instance). Also, how far do we go with this reasoning? Stripe and PayPal refuse service so they're supposed to "Go build their own" (it costs billions to create a new service like stripe or PayPal that can compare). AWS shut you down? Build your own data center... (Again, costs millions or billions). Wh…

>What happens if the party in power next decides to attack religious organizations who congregate during that pandemic with the same type of concerted de-platforming? I didn't realize that Stripe's actions were due to a government order. Probably because they weren't. You're conflating a private organization's decisions with government action. If the government were to attempt do as you suggest, the courts would slap…

But when the limited collection of players in the system all act in concert to prevent access to opponents of their preferred political party, isn’t the effect nearly the same? Arguably worse, because there’s no legal recourse. I think that’s the point being made here.

Imagine all the airlines were run by Republicans, and they universally prevented anyone who works for Democratic leaning organizations (Eg ActBlue) from flying because some small number of bad actors on their side did some bad things.

We would do well to imagine what it would be like to be prevented access with no legal recourse to an an oligopoly of services that cannot practically be bypassed, and ask ourselves what potential for abuse exists when such impactful decisions can be taken without standard legal due process.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#886

Post by sjwright »

briandear wrote: post #526
throw0101a wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But political affiliation is not a protected class. Perhaps these bans are happening not because of political affiliation but due to the messages these particular people (e.g., Trump) are espousing. Parler go banned because it's full of message calling for (e.g.) Mike Pence to be hanged and other such things, and Parler isn't / can't do much about it, and its infrastructure providers (AWS, app stores) do not want a…

Maxine Waters called for her supporters to harass government officials. She’s still on Twitter. A Bernie Sanders supporter ambushed and shot a US Congressman and yet no penalties to various Sanders organizations. Supporters of convicted spy Jonathan Pollard are on Twitter. Mumia Abu-Jamal, a convicted murderer of cops is even on Twitter! AOC stormed and occupied Pelosi’s office in a climate protest in the Capitol and…

Your rather terse language is doing a lot of heavy lifting for those false equivalences. Applying the rationale behind Twitter's recent decision to these other cases is an exercise I shall leave to others.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#887

Post by jf22 »

nec4b wrote: post #851
Jochim wrote: post #839

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If society has decided that your political campaign is so toxic that no one wants to do business with you, should private entities be forced to deal with you if you are not a protected class? Parler being booted is society's reaction to a movement that has been getting more extreme for the last 5 years. I'll note the irony that many of the people complaining about companies refusing to deal with Parler are the same p…

Society hasn't decided anything unless you think a self selected group of people now represents the whole society. The Democratic party and its business lackeys decided to remove political in business opposition/competition with impunity and the Republican party being mostly indifferent about it.

>The Democratic party and its business lackeys

See this is part of the problem.

You are lumping together two different organizations that are nothing alike as somehow part of the same cabal.

Many different people from many different groups and organizations are reaching the same conclusion about Trump and the rise of violent right wing extremism.

Different parts of society are agreeing, and then in each of these parts there are individuals making decisions.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#888

Post by jf22 »

cambalache wrote: post #849
Jochim wrote: post #839

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If society has decided that your political campaign is so toxic that no one wants to do business with you, should private entities be forced to deal with you if you are not a protected class? Parler being booted is society's reaction to a movement that has been getting more extreme for the last 5 years. I'll note the irony that many of the people complaining about companies refusing to deal with Parler are the same p…

Who is society? The coastal rich liberal tech owners?

Many people make up these companies. It's not like there is a secret cabal of left-leaning tech owners that get together and make decisions like this.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#889

Post by avianlyric »

gfodor wrote: post #675
avianlyric wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of speech has nothing to do with newspapers or news, and never has done. It only protects you from government, nothing else. There are legitimate concerns regarding monopolistic behaviour of large digital gatekeepers. But we don’t solve that by deciding to restrict their speech (which is what forced speech would be). You solve it by either making them utilities or breaking them up to create more competition.

You’re talking about the first amendment, a legal structure, not freedom of speech, a philosophical concept.

I don’t think there’s much difference. If you argue that companies like Stripe and Twitter should “uphold freedom of speech”, then you’re restricting their freedom of speech.

My right to speak doesn’t override you’re right to ignore me, or refuse to transmit my message.

Now there’s a knotty issue with entities like Facebook and Twitter becoming the primary ways people communicate with large audiences, but people managed before Facebook and Twitter, so they can manage again.

Or the alternative is that we say Facebook and Twitter don’t deserve to have their own speech protected. At which point someone is picking a choosing who deserves free speech.

You can’t have it both ways.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#890

Post by sjwright »

thewindowmovie5 wrote: post #881
trustfundbaby wrote: post #279

I was on the fence about this, but reading the comments convinced me it was the absolute right decision. The fact that all these institutions just allowed this horrible hateful speech for four years, in the name of free speech etc, despite all the harassment, harm (mental and otherwise) it caused to so many people in America actually emboldened so many to the extent that now that they crossed this invisible line, the…

Trying to engage with the MAGA crowd has been an exercise in futility. Despite no evidence of election fraud on the scale that would overturn the result and every institution in the country asserting the election was free and fair, they refuse to accept it. When they do not act in good faith, incite violence and commit terrorist activity - I think these actions, which were the last resort, is the only sane thing to d…

Far from merely lacking evidence, there is plenty of evidence that Trump was planning to play this hand before the election had even taken place. The accusation effectively pre-dates the supposed evidence for it.
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