SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships • Hacker News Board

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#881

Post by [deleted] » Fri, May 17, 2019, 3:18 PM UTC

oefrha wrote: post #838

robotresearcher wrote: post #711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the feeling, but how about if we rephrase it from another viewpoint: I don’t know why I should be punished because my parents didn’t succeed financially. I work hard in highschool but don’t have extra private tutoring or parents who can help me with calculus homework. I’m hard working and bright but how can I compete with kids from Saratoga High School where everyone’s parents went to MIT/Penn and work a…

I went to Stanford with full financial aid (apparently says something about my financials). I didn’t have to work to support the family, but I didn’t have private tutoring either, and my parents didn’t help me with my homework. I didn’t feel punished at all compared to kids who have everything in the world at their disposal; in fact, knowledge in my brain is about the last thing in the world that’s affected by my fam…

[deleted]

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#882

Post by cardine » Fri, May 17, 2019, 3:19 PM UTC

Bendingo wrote: post #748

cardine wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The student is not making the sacrifice, the parent is. The student has the privilege of benefiting from their parents' sacrifices.

> The student has the privilege of benefiting from their parents' sacrifices And that sacrifice will be for nought, due to adversity scoring. This is a very bad idea.

How would the sacrifice be for naught? The kid is presumably smarter and harder working and better prepared for success no matter what college they go to.

But for college admissions, I don't think it is unreasonable to judge a kid for how well they did relative to the advantages they were given.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#883

Post by ausjke » Fri, May 17, 2019, 3:30 PM UTC

lenkite wrote: post #572

GhostVII wrote: post #215

I think instead of trying to lower the bar for low income students, we should work on solving the actual problems causing them to perform more poorly on the SAT (or adjust the SAT so it is more representative of their actual skills). If students are accepted with a lower SAT score because of their background, they are likely going to struggle in University, since they have lower scores than the rest of their class, s…

I believe all the problems you have mentioned can be easily solved. Permit adversity scores to weigh in favour of course grades and graduate honors. Legislation can be passed to ensure adversity scores count towards corporate and government employment to prevent any bumps further down the road. Furthermore, adversity scores should also be counted towards recruitment in elite military units, selection for senior milit…

Perfect solution! Based on what you said you should run for president to solve all the social issues for us, so far we only have 23 progressive candidates.

I worry SAT-adversity-score is not enough and we should go all the way, starting from free lunch at Kindergarten all the way to guaranteed college, job and income. To get there more efficiently we could just redistribute all the fortune right away. I actually see Communism ahead of us now, gosh Marx has been so right!

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#884

Post by WillPostForFood » Fri, May 17, 2019, 3:37 PM UTC

rlue wrote: post #848

WillPostForFood wrote: post #755

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why fixate on Harvard? It can only ever serve a few thousand kids. There are hundreds of universities and colleges that can provide a good education and more than a fair shot. The problem isn't a poor kid who graduates from University of Wisconsin or University of Colorado instead of Harvard or Stanford, it is the kid who didn't even graduate high school, can't really read, and isn't prepared to show up at work in th…

I meant “Harvard” as a metonym for desirable/high-status universities. Like it or not, when an employer has to sift through 100 applications for a single vacancy, a Harvard graduate is far more likely to still be in the running by the time they’ve narrowed it down to five. This matters less the longer you’ve been out of college, but by then, the effect will have made its mark on your resume already anyway.

What do you consider high status? Top 10? Top 20? A poor kid coming out of University fo Wisconsin (ranked ~50) is not going to look as good as a Harvard grad, but so what? That's my point, only a few thousand kids are ever going to get to be from Harvard. That kid from Wisconsin is going to do great, and have plenty of opportunity. It does a huge disservice to imply that he is lesser or lost out because he didn't make it to Harvard. Same for the kid who goes to the local community college. He will obviously have less opportunity than if he went to opportunity, but that doesn't mean he won't have a lot of opportunity, and enough to live a good life.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#885

Post by Traster » Fri, May 17, 2019, 3:44 PM UTC

intenex wrote: post #749

summm wrote: post #717

How about having lots of decent, desirable universities instead of a few elite ones and many weak ones? Furthermore, one could abolish tuition and provide students with living expenses, either all or those who need them. Furthermore, reverse grade inflation in school such that the final grade is a better predictor for learning aptitude. That would solve the stupid admissions problem once and for all. Btw we had all t…

As someone who went to Harvard, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of extremely decent universities that all basically provide the same quality of instruction. People just get unreasonably hung up over the 'best' schools, but there are easily at least like 100+, if not several hundred, that provide easily roughly the same educational experience as far as I'm aware. The peer group may definitely dramatically different fr…

The dramatic difference between Harvard and an average university is that at Harvard you're probably going to bump into half a dozen people who will either inherit a business, or a fortune to start a business, or just start a business on their own. Guess what, knowing the CEO of companies is a bloody good way of getting a nice job in that company.

The connections you make are what the elite institutions really do to differentiate themselves.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#886

Post by natalyarostova » Fri, May 17, 2019, 3:52 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #670

natalyarostova wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welcome to the dark side.

Could you please not use HN for ideological battle? It's tedious, destroys curiosity, and is not what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Yeah, I'm sorry. Bad joke. I agree, I don't want HN to be an ideological battle ground.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#887

Post by sosodev » Fri, May 17, 2019, 3:54 PM UTC

GhostVII wrote: post #215

I think instead of trying to lower the bar for low income students, we should work on solving the actual problems causing them to perform more poorly on the SAT (or adjust the SAT so it is more representative of their actual skills). If students are accepted with a lower SAT score because of their background, they are likely going to struggle in University, since they have lower scores than the rest of their class, s…

While I agree that calculating hardship is pretty much impossible I don't think a lower SAT score necessarily means worse student.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#888

Post by WillPostForFood » Fri, May 17, 2019, 4:09 PM UTC

akhilcacharya wrote: post #799

WillPostForFood wrote: post #755

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why fixate on Harvard? It can only ever serve a few thousand kids. There are hundreds of universities and colleges that can provide a good education and more than a fair shot. The problem isn't a poor kid who graduates from University of Wisconsin or University of Colorado instead of Harvard or Stanford, it is the kid who didn't even graduate high school, can't really read, and isn't prepared to show up at work in th…

The reason why the elites fixate on Harvard is because they’re completely out of touch with the 99% of folks that don’t apply to or don’t get into elite institutions. It’s pure condescension on their part.

I agree. Also, there is no policy ever that will make admission to Harvard completely equitable, so as long as you hold up Harvard as the example, it justifies any intervention you want to try. Because Harvard.

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#889

Post by complexmango » Fri, May 17, 2019, 4:11 PM UTC

lenkite wrote: post #773

Dylan16807 wrote: post #752

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disingenuous mockery doesn't help. (If you actually believe that's where people are trying to go then I have worse insults for you.)

My mockery reflects the progression of reality in other nations where such policies have been implemented. Your anger and threat of "worse insults" matter little to history. At each stage, the devout proponents of equality will only choose to draw the line further. When students of the 'adversity' quota are unable to get good grades, their grades will be inflated. When they are unable to get jobs, a push will be made…

I immigrated to the US from India to flee exactly this slow progressing nightmare. Beyond stunned to see it happening here!

Re: SAT to Add ‘Adversity Score’ That Rates Students’ Hardships

#890

Post by commandlinefan » Fri, May 17, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #726

robotresearcher wrote: post #711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the feeling, but how about if we rephrase it from another viewpoint: I don’t know why I should be punished because my parents didn’t succeed financially. I work hard in highschool but don’t have extra private tutoring or parents who can help me with calculus homework. I’m hard working and bright but how can I compete with kids from Saratoga High School where everyone’s parents went to MIT/Penn and work a…

The underlying problem is that we're trying to ration something that shouldn't be this scarce. If everybody wants to go to Harvard then why can't they expand the school and accept more students? Because the same brand of metrics trolls who are screwing this up have also screwed up in the school rankings by making schools rank better if they reject more applicants, so now the schools optimize for that .

> If everybody wants to go to Harvard then why can't they expand the school

Well, you can only physically expand a single school so far, but I get what you mean. I think the bigger problem is this concept of “elite universities” and this sort of credential signaling that seems to matter so much. Honestly, I can’t tell how much it really does matter. I went to Valdosta State University (never heard of it? Nope, neither has anybody else), but have worked with Harvard and MIT grads who respected my opinion and treated me as an equal. My 15 year old son, who I’ve never really pushed too hard to worry about getting into a “good” college worries about it anyway, because everybody he knows is worrying about it. He says things like, “If I don’t do well on this test, I’m going to end up going to Texas Tech” and I think, “Hell, Texas Tech is better than where I went to college, and I’m doing fine… should I tell him not to worry so much or encourage him to shoot for the top-ranked colleges?”