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Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

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Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#871

Post by eqvinox »

Uhhrrr wrote: post #869
eqvinox wrote: post #859

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can find other papers written outside of academia that are much more honest: > https://iea.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Perspectives_5... > Catherine McBride […] is a fellow of the Centre for Brexit Policy https://www.desmog.com/centre-brexit-policy/ The Centre for Brexit Policy (CBP) is a pro-Brexit, free-market thinktank Source rejected due to bias, please provide another one.

Did you read the paper? Are there assumptions with which you disagree?

I did. First of all, its primary trade claims collapse when you look at more recent data from https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpay... - it appears 2022 was simply an outlier year. On top of that, I'm not sure the premise about "trade would shift away from the EU" is valid. It wouldn't capture an overall cooling of the economy. Further, a lot of trade goods cannot be shifted arbitrarily between trade partners due to logistics limitations. It's not even worth discussing though, considering it collapses on its own when you include 2025.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#872

Post by lukan »

fractallyte wrote: post #827
lukan wrote: post #700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That math is about animals in a fixed climate who don't do trading. Swiss people do. And that "how much would a population tolerate a reduction in the idyllic/scenic nature of their landscape" is a very arbitary factor that will strongly depend on who you ask.

You're basically reluctant to accept the fact that such a calculation is possible. That says more about you than the competence of mathematicians and ecologists...

Can you bring one claim of "mathematicians and ecologists" that their calculation would not be arbitrary?

Those things ain't absolutes and human society is not made up of numbers and not calculable. So you can make approximations. And they can be useful or not. But you cannot calculate the perfect size of a human society. That is just arbitrary.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#873

Post by stymaar »

tempay wrote: post #310
rayiner wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (even though in Switzerland more than anywhere else, immigration is at the foundation of the country's wealth). Is that true? Switzerland's foreign-born population was under 5% around WWII. Wasn't Switzerland already a rich country by then?

In 1910 the foreign-born population was 14.7% and the drop around WWII was caused by other factors. Much of the industrialisation and banking industry was driven by immigrants. Arguably the wealth of today is the product of managing to avoid the worst of WWII and profiting from Switzerland's "neutrality" but that's an entire conversation by itself.

> Much of the industrialisation and banking industry was driven by immigrants.

This. In particular the chemical/pharmaceutical industry (which is still a major Swiss industry today) got bootstrapped in great part by French and German chemists moving to Switzerland where they could make chemicals that was patented elsewhere but not in Switzerland due to looser industrial property laws at the time.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#874

Post by thin_carapace »

sculper wrote: post #862
thin_carapace wrote: post #839

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i deal with uncomfortable questions regularly so obviously there will be a bias on my part for handling them. it seems to me like a lot of people believe that shutting down questions is the best idea here. can you please explain to me why it is xenophobic to ask questions? i dont really see the link and i dont see why shutting people down for asking questions is a good idea.

If you're truly curious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions But judging by your other recent comments, I suspect that you are not asking this question in good faith.

you must understand that I don't see myself to have bad faith here. I don't see what's stopping people from asking their own questions back instead of waving the finger. why not query me to determine my nature based on my response? making assumptions based on the way I sound, i cant believe that you people dont see the irony, this is how actual racists behave.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#875

Post by amunozo »

mike_hearn wrote: post #870
amunozo wrote: post #841

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For sure, but going back to this after such a close integration is much harder than the previous situation. Moreover, the uncertainty of when or if these measure will be applied would damage the predictability and stability of Switzerland, which are their best assets.

The UK went with the "hardest" exit possible in law, in which all integration was unwound, but trade levels continued on their pre-referendum trajectory. So it's not that hard, apparently.

Well, you may be right, who knows. I still think is not worth it to create uncertainty in a country whose biggest strengths are certainty and stability for limiting immigration in a country where immigrants cause no troubles.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#876

Post by mike_hearn »

eqvinox wrote: post #871
Uhhrrr wrote: post #869

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the paper? Are there assumptions with which you disagree?

I did. First of all, its primary trade claims collapse when you look at more recent data from https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpay... - it appears 2022 was simply an outlier year. On top of that, I'm not sure the premise about "trade would shift away from the EU" is valid. It wouldn't capture an overall cooling of the economy. Further, a lot of trade goods cannot be shifted arbitrarily between…

The paper was written in 2023. Citing numbers from years after it was published doesn't make sense, as it didn't make any specific claims about what would happen in future years. It was only pointing out that the narrative from pro-EU economists was false, which is what you wanted a paper for.

2022 had a catchup effect from COVID. Nonetheless exports and imports are both higher than in the 2010s, exports have been rising since 2023 and exports to the EU are currently increasing, not decreasing:

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/exports

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/imports

> Exports in the UK rose 0.2% month-on-month to £79.13 billion in March 2026 from £78.98 billion in February. Goods exports edged up 0.1% to £32.35 billion, driven by higher shipments to the EU (3.9%), while those to non-EU countries remained relatively unchanged.

The further we get from the actual date of leaving the less any specific trend can be argued to be caused by it though. It's especially tricky because lockdown impact was so massive it drowned out everything. But Brexit was years ago. None of the predicted economic disasters came true which is why its critics are reduced to playing with Excel.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#877

Post by throwaway2037 »

bluebarbet wrote: post #815
throwaway2037 wrote: post #786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Switzerland's mercenary attitude to immigration is well known What is meant by "mercenary attitude" here?

Historically, Switzerland has taken the same approach to immigration as the Gulf Arab states: immigration is strictly contingent on labor needs, and citizenship is almost completely out of reach.

    > Switzerland has taken the same approach to immigration as the Gulf Arab states
I need to say: Have you watched any YouTube videos about the way that low-skill migrants live and work in Gulf Arab states? It is horrifying. I will not downvote your comment if you reply in good faith. My point: Italian migrants who worked on big Swiss infra projects may not qualify for citizenship, but they did not have their passports confiscated by employers, nor lived in housing anywhere near the appalling conditions of Gulf Arab states.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#878

Post by stouset »

kypro wrote: post #659
stouset wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I know people who have been victims from these far-right cultures being brought into my community. I have no tolerance for it. If you wish to call that xenophobia then so be it. I'd highly recommend not visiting places like Afghanistan, not because the weather isn't nice, but because the people are awful. That's not just me saying that either, most Western governments will tell you not to visit either. Perhaps that's…

I too know people who have been victims of the far-right culture that has festered amongst native-born Americans.

This country was founded on the idea that we allow competing opinions and ideologies, even those we find distasteful. If people commit actual crimes, we have processes to deal with that.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#879

Post by throwaway2037 »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #842
throwaway2037 wrote: post #775

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, the economic performance of Japan is pretty similar to Italy. They have incredibly low population growth (or shrinking), but their GDP per capita continues to increase year-over-year. Surprisingly, quality of life is pretty good in Japan and Italy (the second will be a bit controversial here). As long as you have a middle class job, your life will be pretty good.

People are incredibly unhappy with their lives in Japan. Why do people continue to believe otherwise? https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20250410/p2a/00m/0na/01...

I am going to make a wild claim: "Happiness" is a stupid metric for quality of life. So many of the answers are tainted by local culture. Most Japanese people would feel like they are bragging to say they are somewhat or very happy. The very question is flawed. And I guarantee the survey was created by people with mostly Western European culture. To be clear: I said "quality of life" not happiness. There is a big difference. Let me tell you what "works" in Japan: health care, education (primary, secondary, and tertiary), home buying/building (wildly cheap by world standards), labor protections, national pension, mass transit, personal safety, taxation... I could go on and on. Quality of life is objectively extremely highly in Japan when compared to other nations.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#880

Post by aprilthird2021 »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #879
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #842

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are incredibly unhappy with their lives in Japan. Why do people continue to believe otherwise? https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20250410/p2a/00m/0na/01...

I am going to make a wild claim: "Happiness" is a stupid metric for quality of life. So many of the answers are tainted by local culture. Most Japanese people would feel like they are bragging to say they are somewhat or very happy. The very question is flawed. And I guarantee the survey was created by people with mostly Western European culture. To be clear: I said "quality of life" not happiness. There is a big dif…

I wish you had actually read the article.

> Among Japanese respondents who said they were not happy, the most common reason was their "economic situation," cited by 64%

> Only 15% of Japanese respondents said "overall quality of life will be much better in five years," the lowest among all nations surveyed. In contrast, the highest optimism for the future was seen in Colombia at 79%, followed by India at 78% and 76% each in Argentina, Indonesia and Mexico.

> Only 13% of Japanese pollees answered that their current quality of life is "good" -- the lowest among all 30 countries. This was less than half the average of 42% and notably lower than Hungary (22%), the second lowest, and South Korea (24%), the third lowest.

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