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The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

techtrenches.dev

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Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#871

Post by Forgeties79 »

leptons wrote: post #869
Forgeties79 wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you can’t assume everyone else is as indifferent about wasting people’s time as you are. Some of us don’t want to actively make our colleagues/customers miserable. That decision forces me to decide if I will be a part of the problem even if I generally do good work I can stand behind. You’re forcing me into a decision making process purely out of your desire to not do the bare minimum when working. That’s not…

Maybe you missed the part where I said "And I don't like it one bit"?

Yes I think so as well. Didn’t read your intent correctly. My bad

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#872

Post by lavp »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #312
jdw64 wrote: post #17

The real issue, in my view, is not AI itself. The problem is a management pattern: removing people and organizational slack because they don’t generate immediate profit, and then expecting the knowledge to still be there when it’s needed. Short-term cost cutting leads to less junior hiring, and removes the slack that experienced engineers need in order to teach. As a result, tacit knowledge stops being transferred. W…

> The core problem is that decision-makers—often far removed from actual engineering work — believe that tacit knowledge can be replaced with documentation, tools, and processes. [It] cannot. I am not so certain: For example, I think that a lot of my knowledge about the system that I work on could be documented, and based on this documentation someone new could take over the system. The problem rather is: the volume…

Documentation should serve as a general overview of the system (purpose, architecture, etc.), and elaborate on the interface of that system. Other than documenting historical relics like ADRs, I see it as a net negative in being very granular.

It quickly becomes outdated and at some point you just need to accept that only the code will be the most accurate source of truth.

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#873

Post by Arainach »

WalterBright wrote: post #815
cowmix wrote: post #687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “created vs transferred” thing is more nuanced than that. At some point, accumulated wealth becomes power, and that power can be used to pull energy, attention, labor, and public resources out of the system for one person’s agenda. And in Tesla’s case, the stock value creation story is insanely unorthodox, to be charitable. A lot of that valuation was supercharged by years of market-moving hype done personally by…

If TSLA is in a bubble, at some point it will implode. And then the wealth that was created is destroyed - it won't be transferred out of the company, either. > Musk helped put Trump back in power, and the relationship looks openly transactional. Both parties accept help from wealthy people, and yes, they do expect something in return. I don't see that Musk got anything out of it, though. Musk received 0 benefit from…

> Musk received 0 benefit from DOGE.

Besides eviscerating all the regulatory agencies enforcing rules against his companies and huge amounts of private data from all sorts of agencies?

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#874

Post by nobodyandproud »

WalterBright wrote: post #820
nobodyandproud wrote: post #810

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it require it? To what aim does this serve the market? A check against fraud and protection of property rights can be achieved through force and violence and the threat of violence, so that answer seems inadequate. Likewise, supply and demand is definitely affected by government policies. The supply of labor, for example, by allowing or disallowing near shore or off-shore work with steep penalties. Or allowi…

> Why does it require it? The idea is that transactions then become mutually beneficial. You cannot vote away the Law of Supply and Demand any more than you can legislate pi=3.00

Who said anything about “voting away”?

It’s a strange blindspot you have where you understand there is clearly some government role to have a free market, yet can’t see that this also means the government can influence—not eliminate, you’re the one making this claim not me—supply and demand.

The government clearly has levers to influence supply, but I’m failing to make it clear it seems.

As for making transactions beneficial between two parties: Which two parties?

Why does this belief not extend to workers and businesses?

Why doesn’t the lobbying by firms to support H1Bs and off-shore prove that government policies clearly impacts labor supply?

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#875

Post by WalterBright »

Arainach wrote: post #827
WalterBright wrote: post #823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And where are those other geniuses today?

History is full of actual talented people screwed over by capitalists.

When you accept a salaried position, you sign a contract. The contract lays out your compensation, stock options, etc. In return you turn over the intellectual property you produce to the company.

This is an entirely mutually voluntary arrangement.

If the company does not deliver on its contractual obligations to you, you can take them to court, and you'll win.

If you don't get more than you accepted in the contract, you have no cause to claim being "screwed over".

If you don't read the contract before you sign it, that's on you.

P.S. I've added adendums to employment contracts listing the separate intellectual property that was mine and would remain mine. I never got any pushback on that. Also, I've started side projects while employed, and before working on them, I'd get a signoff from an executive that it was not covered by my employment contract. And I never got "screwed over".

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#876

Post by pigeons »

applied_heat wrote: post #792
contingencies wrote: post #693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your line of reasoning misses the clear example that China pulled 1.4 billion people out of poverty creating mass-literacy before embracing capitalism.

They certainly turned away from socialism and towards capitalism though, I think as part of embracing capitalism. What parts of the economy are not capitalist? State owned companies? In Canada and the US there are many protected or subsidized companies as well. Genuinely curious on the differences on owning a company in China vs canada Thanks

Ask Jack Ma.

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#877

Post by classified »

throwaw12 wrote: post #202
jdw64 wrote: post #17

The real issue, in my view, is not AI itself. The problem is a management pattern: removing people and organizational slack because they don’t generate immediate profit, and then expecting the knowledge to still be there when it’s needed. Short-term cost cutting leads to less junior hiring, and removes the slack that experienced engineers need in order to teach. As a result, tacit knowledge stops being transferred. W…

> The problem is a management pattern .... Short-term cost cutting Absolutely agree with this. Most MBAs are taught to optimize and reduce the slack. It works fine with machinery and materials, but not with humans. When machinery is optimized and run thin, when one of them breaks, you can get exact same in couple days (you usually prepare for it earlier), but with humans, they train their brain and next person is dif…

> Most MBAs are taught to optimize and reduce the slack.

With a myopic definition of "optimize". But as long as they are being rewarded for it, the incentives are broken.

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#878

Post by WalterBright »

Arainach wrote: post #873
WalterBright wrote: post #815

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If TSLA is in a bubble, at some point it will implode. And then the wealth that was created is destroyed - it won't be transferred out of the company, either. > Musk helped put Trump back in power, and the relationship looks openly transactional. Both parties accept help from wealthy people, and yes, they do expect something in return. I don't see that Musk got anything out of it, though. Musk received 0 benefit from…

> Musk received 0 benefit from DOGE. Besides eviscerating all the regulatory agencies enforcing rules against his companies and huge amounts of private data from all sorts of agencies?

USAID was not involved with regulating Musk's companies.

Let's say Musk has all that private data. What did he do with it? Is he extorting anyone? How does it help his rocket business? Is he draining anyone's bank accounts?

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#879

Post by WalterBright »

ryandrake wrote: post #859
WalterBright wrote: post #819

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are all slightly worse off every time there is a new billionaire. I responded to the zero sum theory in another reply. I'll just say that every country that decided to get rid of its wealthy people wound up poorer, a lot poorer. For a specific example, Massachusetts has a luxury yacht industry. The government decided that they wanted to tax the wealthy, and slapped a hefty tax on yachts. The billionaires simply…

> I responded to the zero sum theory in another reply. You have ~40 responses in this thread in defense of billionaires, not sure which one exactly you're talking about.

See my posts saying that wealthy people create wealth, they do not transfer it. The transfer theory is the zero sum theory.

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#880

Post by WalterBright »

SquibblesRedux wrote: post #694
WalterBright wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Musk got a huge leg up through the government, whether it be tax credits, incentives, side-stepping regulations, etc. Nope. (Any government incentives were available to all the other car companies.) > Bezos ran at a loss for so long it drove out actual and potential competitors. Where do you think he got the money to sustain those losses? Investors! Including me. That is not a "transfer" of wealth, as in exchange t…

I was not making an argument that the economy is zero-sum, or that Musk or Bezos did not build wealth. I merely pointed out methods they used to build their empires. For example, Musk did take advantage of government incentives, sidestepped regulations, etc. Again, I never claimed there was any sort of zero-sum transfer of wealth. I'm simply pointing out there are varied ways to build up wealth; people have various o…

Government incentives were available to all the car companies. There were no government incentives for SpaceX or Twitter or Starlink.

As for "sidestepped regulations", you'll need to be more specific. He did have some court battles with regulators, and won them.

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