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Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

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Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#871
post #579

[flagged]

There are many issues raised with the report, including it omits the invasion by the government of Gaza, Hamas, on 7 October 2023 entirely, and it omits that the Israeli army is fighting the army of Gaza, the Qasam brigades, who had 40,000 salaried fighters (pre-war), have fired thousands of missiles, developed hundreds of kilometres of tunnels specifically for urban warfare, and subverted public and private infrastr…

Hamas never hid they targeted civilians to make Israel suffer.

It's Israel engaging in a genocide pretending to fight a terror group.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#872

I'm afraid the latest spate of "recognizing the state of Palestine" is not, in fact, a sign of coming relief for the people there, but rather a spigot to relieve domestic pressure to engage in substantive actions (sanctions, pressuring the US and other suppliers of arms to engage in sanctions, let alone sending peacekeepers or no-fly zones). Regardless of how much you're personally invested in the topic, this should…

> Regardless of how much you're personally invested in the topic, this should break the hearts of everyone who dreamed that the international community could hold each other legally accountable.

Since the mid 90s the world has proven to turn their head on the other side or pick good/bad narratives out of mere convenience.

It started with the Yugoslavian wars, it absolutely exploded after 9/11 when US could straight up lie about non existing WMD and drag 10 of their allies to fight Iraq "for reasons". It confirmed itself in a countless number of conflicts nobody cared about in Africa, Middle East, Asia.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#873

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Iron Dome prevents most of the rocket attacks. Gaza has no protection against what has become indiscriminate Israeli bombing.

If Israeli bombing really were indiscriminate how did they manage to average less than one dead per bomb dropped in urban/suburban environments?

> how did they manage to average less than one dead per bomb dropped in urban/suburban environments?

By targeting first responders, jornalists, paramedics, and any professionals able to properly rescue wounded, dead and count the causalties, making available numbers a gross underestimate on the true death toll. Just a few days ago we all watched a staircase full of working first responders and jornalists being blown by israeli tank fire.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#874
The trouble is, what is the right medium or long term solution. If Israel militarily fails as a state, which seems to me to be an implicit aim of a significant number of anti-Israel folks, the results will make the current Gaza conflict look like a joke.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#875
post #874

The trouble is, what is the right medium or long term solution. If Israel militarily fails as a state, which seems to me to be an implicit aim of a significant number of anti-Israel folks, the results will make the current Gaza conflict look like a joke.

Short-term, Israel should have pumped the breaks on disproportionate response. Dahiya doctrine never worked, and now Hamas has successfully leveraged it to win (undue!) international credibility.

If a policy of de-escalation can be honored, you can lay the groundwork for a medium/long term solution that respects all sovereign parties.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#876

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many issues raised with the report, including it omits the invasion by the government of Gaza, Hamas, on 7 October 2023 entirely, and it omits that the Israeli army is fighting the army of Gaza, the Qasam brigades, who had 40,000 salaried fighters (pre-war), have fired thousands of missiles, developed hundreds of kilometres of tunnels specifically for urban warfare, and subverted public and private infrastr…

Is it actually relevant? It's not about why israel fights but about how they fight. The report is not about the conflict at large but about how exactly israel is handling day to day operations.

the atlantic article from almost exactly year ago: https://archive.is/wKScw

-------------------

Brett McGurk would push back against the complaints, invoking his stint overseeing the siege of Mosul during the Obama administration, as the U.S. attempted to drive ISIS from northern Iraq: We flattened the city. There’s nothing left. What standard are you holding these Israelis to?

It was an argument bolstered by a classified cable sent by the U.S. embassy in Israel in late fall. American officials had embedded in IDF operating centers, reviewing its procedures for ordering air strikes. The cable concluded that the Israeli standards for protecting civilians and calculating the risks of bombardment were not so different from those used by the U.S. military.

When State Department officials chastised them over the mounting civilian deaths, Israeli officials liked to make the very same point. Herzl Halevi, the IDF chief of staff, brought up his own education at an American war college. He recalled asking a U.S. general how many civilian deaths would be acceptable in pursuit of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the jihadist leader of the anti-American insurgency in Iraq. The general replied, I don’t even understand the question. As Halevi now explained to the U.S. diplomats, Everything we do, we learned at your colleges.

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in other words Israel using same approach as NATO armies. And if any of NATO armies will be in same situation, the outcome will be same.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#877
post #697

Every time I've looked into the arguments for this being a genocide, I saw, at best, a description of urban warfare. Maybe I am wrong. If anyone is still reading this thread, could you write what you believe will happen after Israel won the war?

I more or less agree with you (if it were a _genocide_, you'd expect Israel to be equally targeting Palestinians in the West Bank and in Israel proper), but the report does have some specific examples of things that seem to go beyond "just" urban warfare. For example, Israel denied shipments of baby milk powder, which can serve no legitimate military purpose (except trying to prosecute the war via starvation of babie…

animals comment (iirc made by galant) is misused. it was refering to hamas/pji/pflp that raided Israel on Oct 7th and not to the whole population

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#878
post #874

The trouble is, what is the right medium or long term solution. If Israel militarily fails as a state, which seems to me to be an implicit aim of a significant number of anti-Israel folks, the results will make the current Gaza conflict look like a joke.

[flagged]

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#879

I for one will be holding my representatives responsible who continue to vote for the US to enable a genocide. The videos coming out of Gaza have turned me and many others into single issue voters.

> The videos coming out of Gaza have turned me and many others into single issue voters. Ironically, that was one of the biggest campaign points and voter sentiment on which people flipped to Red. We all know what happened.

Joe Biden invited Trump for a second term through his genocidal policy in Palestine and unwavering support for Israeli fascism. Trump's second term could have been avoided if Biden had been more moderate in several key topics, Palestine included.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#880

I for one will be holding my representatives responsible who continue to vote for the US to enable a genocide. The videos coming out of Gaza have turned me and many others into single issue voters.

Consider that the videos of Oct 7 had a similar effect on lots of decent people. The un is the same now as it was before October 7. In gueterres words "it didn't happen in a vacuum". The complete loss of credibility for the un also didn't happen in a vacuum. Even if their report is true it will fall on deaf ears thanks in no small part to their lack of any sort of objectivity when it comes to Israel.

The only people that accuse the UN for 'loss of credibility' are the religious fanatics in Tel Aviv, who are angry at the UN for not indulging their 3000-year old mythological delusions.
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