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Why are there so many rationalist cults?

asteriskmag.com

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Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#871

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like this approach. Also having dipped my toes in the engineering world (professionally) I think it naturally follows that you should be constantly rechecking your designs. Those tolerances were fine to begin with, but are they now that things have changed? It also makes you think about failure modes. What can make this all come down and if it does what way will it fail? Which is really useful because you can then…

The example I heard was to picture the Challenger shuttle, and the O-rings used worked 99% of the time. Well, what happens to the failure rate when you have 6 O-rings in a booster rocket, and you only need one to fail for disaster? Now you only have a 94% success rate.

IIRC the Challenger o-ring problem was much more deterministic. That the flaw was known and caused by the design not considering the actual operational temperature range. Which, I think there's a good lesson to learn there (and from several NASA failure): the little things matter. It's idiotic to ignore a $10 fix if the damage would cost billions of dollars.

But I still think your point is spot on and that's really what matters haha

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#872

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you can make a chain of logic f∘g∘h where the probability of the combined function is higher than the probability of f or g or h on their own. Chain of logic meaning that only the last function updates the probability you care about, and the preceeding functions give you intermediate information that is only useful to feed into the next function. It is an absolute rule you can follow, as long as you're…

I'm not disagreeing with you. You understand that, right? The parent was talking about stringing together inferences. My argument * was how you string them together matters* . That's all. I said "context matters." I tried to reiterate this in my previous comment. So let's try one more time. Again, I'm not going to argue you're wrong. I'm going to argue that more context is needed to determine if likelihood increases…

I'll try to keep this simple.

> I'm not disagreeing with you. You understand that, right?

We disagree about whether context can make a difference, right?

> The parent was talking about stringing together inferences. My argument was how you string them together matters. That's all. I said "context matters."

> TLDR: We can't determine if likelihood increases or decreases without additional context

The situations you describe where inference acts differently do not fall under the "stringing together"/"chaining" they were originally talking about. Context never makes their original statement untrue. Chaining always makes evidence weaker.

To be extra clear, it's not about whether the evidence pushes your result number up or down, it's that the likelihood of the evidence itself being correct drops.

> It is the act of chaining together functions.

They were not talking about whether something is composition or not. When they said "string" and "chain" they were talking about a sequence of inferences where each one leads to the next one.

Composition can be used in a wide variety of contexts. You need context to know if composition weakens or strengthens arguments. But you do not need context to know if stringing/chaining weakens or strengthens.

> No, you're being too strict in your definition of "chain".

No, you're being way too loose.

> This tells me you drew your chain wrong. If multiple things are each contributing to D independently then that is not A->B->C->D

??? Of course those are different. That's why I wrote "as opposed to".

> I also gave an example for the other case. So why focus on one of these and ignore the other?

I'm focused on the one you called a "counter example" because I'm arguing it's not an example.

If you specifically want me to address "If these are being multiplied, then yes, this is going to decreases as xy TL;DR:

At this point I'm mostly sure we're only disagreeing about the definition of stringing/chaining? If yes, oops sorry I didn't mean to argue so much about definitions. If not, then can you give me an example of something I would call a chain where adding a step increases the probability the evidence is correct?

And I have no idea why you're talking about LLMs.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#873

This is a very interesting article. It's surprising though to see it not use the term "certainty" at all. (It only uses "certain" in a couple instances of like "a certain X" and one use of "certainly" for generic emphasis.) Most of what the article says makes sense, but it seems to sidestep the issue that a major feature distinguishing the "good" rationalists from the "bad" is that the bad ones are willing to take ve…

> it seems to sidestep the issue that a major feature distinguishing the "good" rationalists from the "bad" is that the bad ones are willing to take very extreme actions in support of their beliefs. What is a "very extreme action"? Killing someone? In our culture, yes. What about donating half of your salary to charity? I think many people would consider that quite extreme, too. Maybe even more difficult to understan…

> What about donating half of your salary to charity? I think many people would consider that quite extreme, too.

Maybe, but there are also degrees of extremity in terms of stuff like how broadly you donate (like there's a difference between donating a huge amount to one charity vs. spreading it around 10). Also I don't think the mere fact of donating half your salary would itself necessarily be seen as extreme; it would depend on the person's total wealth. It seems not unusual for wealthy individuals who get certain jobs to donate (or refuse) their entire salary (like Arnold Schwarzenegger declining his salary as CA governor).

Ultimately though I don't agree that this is anywhere close to as extreme as cold-blooded murder.

> I mean, prisons are full of murderers; they are not so exceptional.

I have a hunch that a large proportion of murderers in prisons are not comparable to rationalist murderers. There's a difference between just killing someone and killing someone due to your belief that that is the rational and correct thing to do. A lot of murders are crimes of passion or occur in the commission of other crimes. I could see an intermediate case where someone says "We're going to rob this bank and if the guard gives us any trouble we'll just shoot him", which is perhaps comparable to "always escalate conflict", but I don't think most murders even reach that level of premeditation.

> The difference is that the bad ones are willing to take abusive actions.

I'm not so sure that that is the difference, rather than that they are willing to take extreme actions, and then the extreme actions they wind up taking (for whatever reason) are abusive. It's sort of like, if you fire a gun into a crowd, your willingness to do so is important whether or not you actually hit anyone. Similarly a willingness to go well outside the bounds of accepted behaviors is worrisome even if you don't happen to harm anyone by doing so. I could certainly imagine that many rationalists do indeed formulate belief systems that exclude certain kinds of extreme behavior while allowing others. I'm just saying, if I found out that someone was spending all their days doing any spookily extreme thing (e.g., 8 hours a day building a scale model of Hoover Dam one grain of sand at a time) I would feel a lot less safe around them.

> > It's also interesting to me that the article focuses a lot not on rationalist belief per se, but on the logistics and practices of rationalist communities.

> That's what happens when you read about the rationality community from someone who is actually familiar with it. If you want to determine whether a group is dysfunctional (i.e. a cult), the actual practices are much more important than the stated beliefs.

Sure. My point is just that, insofar as this is true, it means what the article is saying is more about cults in general and less about anything specific to rationalism.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#874

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The WHO didn't declare a global pandemic until March 11, 2020 [1]. That's a little slow and some rationalists were earlier than that. (Other people too.) After reading a warning from a rationalist blog, I posted a lot about COVID news to another forum and others there gave me credit for giving the heads-up that it was a Big Deal and not just another thing in the news. (Not sure it made all that much difference, thoug…

I worked at the British Medical Journal at the time. We got wind of COVID being a big thing in January. I spent January to March to get our new VPN into a fit state that the whole company could do their whole jobs from home. 23 March was lockdown and we were ready and had a very busy year. That COVID was going to be big was obvious to a lot of people and groups who were paying attention. We were a health-related org,…

I don't think anyone said they were unique? I was countering a claim that they just agreed with the WHO.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#875

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not disagreeing with you. You understand that, right? The parent was talking about stringing together inferences. My argument * was how you string them together matters* . That's all. I said "context matters." I tried to reiterate this in my previous comment. So let's try one more time. Again, I'm not going to argue you're wrong. I'm going to argue that more context is needed to determine if likelihood increases…

I'll try to keep this simple. > I'm not disagreeing with you. You understand that, right? We disagree about whether context can make a difference, right? > The parent was talking about stringing together inferences. My argument was how you string them together matters . That's all. I said "context matters." > TLDR: We can't determine if likelihood increases or decreases without additional context The situations you d…

  > I'm mostly sure we're only disagreeing about the definition of stringing/chaining? 
Correct.

  > No, you're being way too loose.
Okay, instead of just making claims and for me to trust you, go point to something concrete. I've even tried to google, but despite my years of study in statistics, metric theory, and even mathematical logic I'm at a loss in finding your definition.

I'm aware of the Chain Rule of Probability, but this isn't the only type you will find the term "chain" in statistics. Hell, the calculus Chain Rule is still used there too! So forgive me for being flustered but you are literally arguing to me that a Markov Chain isn't a chain. Maybe I'm having a stroke, but I'm pretty sure the word "chain" is in Markov Chain.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#876
post #398

A very interesting read. My idea of these self-proclaimed rationalists was fifteen years out of date. I thought they’re people who write wordy fan fiction, but turns out they’ve reached the point of having subgroups that kill people and exorcise demons. This must be how people who had read one Hubbard pulp novel in the 1950s felt decades later when they find out he’s running a full-blown religion now. The article see…

I was reminded of Hubbard too. In particular the "[belief that one] should always escalate when threatened" strongly echoes Hubbard's advice to always attack attack. Never defend. The whole thing reminds me of EST and a thousand other cults / self-improvement / self-actualisation groups that seem endemic to California ever since the 60s or before.

Money and Heat has a strong ability to encourage crazy.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#877

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I wrote a lot and it's a bit scattered. You're welcome to point to something specific but so far you haven't. Ironically, you're committing the error you're accusing me of. I'm also not exactly sure what you mean because the only claim I've made is that they've made assumptions where there are other possible, and likely, alternatives. It's much easier to prove something wrong than prove it right (or in our case…

And about this second comment, I agree that intelligence is bounded. We can discuss how much more intelligence is theoretically possible, but even if limit ourselves to extrapolation from human variance (agency of musk, math smart of von neumann, manipulative as trump, etc), and add a little more speed and parallelism (100 times faster, 100 copies cooperating), then we can get pretty far. Also I agree we are all pret…

  > How lucky do you feel?
I don't gamble. But I am confident P(doom) is quite low.

Despite that, I do take AI safety quite seriously and literally work on the fundamental architectures of these things. You don't need P(doom) to be high for you to take doom seriously. The probability isn't that consequential when we consider such great costs. All that matters is the probability is not approximately zero.

But all you P(doom)-ers just make this work harder to do and make it harder to improve those systems and make them safer. It just furthers people like Altman who are pushing a complementary agenda and who recognize that you cannot stop the development of AI. In fact, the more you press this doom story the more you make it impossible. What the story of doom (as well as story of immense wealth) pushes is a need to rush.

If you want to really understand this, go read about nuclear deterrence. I don't mean go watch some youtube video or some Less Wrong article. I mean go grab a few books. Read both sides of the arguments. But as it stands, this is how the military ultimately thinks and that effectively makes it true. You don't launch nukes because your enemy will too. You also don't say what that red line is because then you can still use it as a bargaining chip. If you state that line, your enemy will just walk up to it and do everything before it.

So what about AI? The story being sold is that this enables a weapon of mass destruction. Take US and China. China has to make AI because the US makes AI and if the US makes AI first they can't risk that the US won't use it to take out all their nukes or ruin their economy. They can't take that risk even if the probability is low. But the same is true in reverse. So the US can't stop because China won't and if China gets there first they could destroy the US. You see the trap?[0] Now here's the fucking kicker. Suppose you believe your enemy is close to building that AI weapon. Does that cross your red line in which you will use nukes?

So you doomers are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy, in a way. Ironically this is highly relevant to the real dangers of AI systems. The current (and still future) danger comes from outsourcing intelligence and decision making to these machines. Ironically this becomes less problematic once we actually create machines with intelligence (intelligence like humans or animals, not like automated reasoning (a technology we've had since the 60's)).

You want to reduce the risk of doom? Here's what you do. You convince both sides that instead of competing, they pursue development together. Hand in hand. Openly. No one gets AI first. Secret AI programs? Considered an act of aggression. Yes, this still builds AI but it dramatically reduces the risk of danger. You don't need to rush or cut corners because you are worried about your enemy getting a weapon first and destroying you. You get the "weapon" simultaneously, along with everyone else on the planet. It's not a great solution because you still end up with "nuclear weapons" (analogously), but if everyone gets it at the same time then you end up in a situation like we have been for the last few decades (regardless of the cause, it is an abnormally peaceful time in human history) where MAD policies are in effect[1].

I don't think it'll happen, everyone will say "I would, but they won't" and end up failing without trying. But ultimately this is a better strategy than getting people to stop. You're not going to be successful in stopping. It just won't happen. P(doom) exists in this scenario even without the development of AGI. As long as that notion of doom exists, there is incentives to rush and cut corners. People like Altman will continue to push that message and say that they are the only ones who can do it safely and do it fast (which is why they love the "Scale is All You Need" story). So if you are afraid I don't think you're afraid enough. There's a lot of doom that exists before AGI. You don't need AGI or ASI for the paperclip scenario. Such an AI doesn't even require real thinking[2].

The reason doomers make work like mine harder is because researchers like me care about the nuances and subtleties. We care about understanding how the systems work. But as long as a looming threat is on the line people will argue that we have no time to study the details or find out how these things work. You cannot make these things safe without understanding how they work (to a sufficient degree at least). And frankly, it isn't just doomers, it is also people rushing to make the next AI product. It doesn't matter if ignoring those details and nuances is self-sabotaging. The main assumption under my suggestion is that when people rush they tend to make more mistakes. It's not guaranteed that people make mistakes, but there sure is a tendency for that to happen. After all, we're only human.

You ask how lucky I feel? I'll ask you how confident a bunch of people racing to create something won't make mistakes. Won't make disastrous mistakes. This isn't just a game between US and China, there are a lot more countries involved. You think all of them can race like this and not make a major mistake? A mistake which causes P(doom)? Me? I sure don't feel lucky about that one.

[0] It sounds silly, but this is how Project Stargate happened. No, not the current one that ironically shares the same name, the one in the 70's where they studied psychic powers. It started because a tabloid published that Russians were doing it, so the US started research in response, which caused the Russians to actually research psychic phenomena.

[1] Not to mention that if this happened it would be a unique act of unity that we've never seen in human history. And hey, if you really want to convince AI, Aliens, or whatever that we can be peaceful, here's the chance.

[2] As Melanie Mitchell likes to point out, an AGI wouldn't have this problem because if you have general intelligence you understand that humans won't sacrifice their own lives to make more paperclips. Who then would even use them? So the paperclip scenario is a danger of a sophisticated automata rather than of intelligence.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#878
post #612

This article is beautifully written, and it's full of proper original research. I'm sad that most comments so far are knee-jerk "lol rationalists" type responses. I haven't seen any comment yet that isn't already addressed in much more colour and nuance in the article itself.

The contrarian dynamic strikes again! https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... (I'm referring to how this comment, objecting to the other comments as unduly negative, has been upvoted to the top of the thread.) (p.s. this is not a criticism!)

I'm more than happy I read your comment body and its good/well natured tone before your name XD .

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#879
post #662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of terrible people are self-aware, well-read and ultimately concerned with doing good. All of the catastrophes of the 20th century were led by men that fit this description: Stalin, Mao, Hitler. Perhaps this is a bit hyperbolic, but the troubling belief that the Rationalists have in common with these evil men is the ironclad conviction that self-awareness, being well-read, and being concerned with good, somehow…

IMO we can’t define hubris anymore. The concept has become foreign.

We should conceptualize it the way the Ancient Greeks did, which is the belief that human ingenuity can somehow overcome the will of the gods.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#880
post #398

A very interesting read. My idea of these self-proclaimed rationalists was fifteen years out of date. I thought they’re people who write wordy fan fiction, but turns out they’ve reached the point of having subgroups that kill people and exorcise demons. This must be how people who had read one Hubbard pulp novel in the 1950s felt decades later when they find out he’s running a full-blown religion now. The article see…

You're falling into some sort of fallacy; maybe a better rationalist than I could name it. The "they" you are describing is a large body of disparate people spread around the world. We're reading an article that focuses on a few dysfunctional subgroups. They are interesting because they are so dysfunctional and rare. Or put it this way: Name one -ism that _doesn't_ have sub/splinter groups that kill people. Even Paci…

Existentialism.

Post-modernism.

Accidentalism.

Perhaps the difference is that these isms didn't think they had thought up everything themselves.

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