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Steam, Itch.io are pulling ‘porn’ games. Critics say it's a slippery slope

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Re: Steam, Itch.io are pulling ‘porn’ games. Critics say it's a slippery slope

#871

Post by simion314 »

SoftTalker wrote: post #866
advael wrote: post #863

It's crazy to me that people can simultaneously understand that censorship is bad and still think we can allow for exceptions for things like "obscenity/pornography" or "hate speech" Free expression means that objectionable things will be said, even published. There are certainly hairy exceptions, like doxxing, slander, or incitement to violence that can put people in immediate danger, but stuff like this clearly doe…

This isn't censorship. This is VISA/MC saying "you can't pay for porn with our service" or more broadly, "you can't pay for things that we don't want to be associated with" which is their right.

>This is VISA/MC saying "you can't pay for porn with our service" or more broadly, "you can't pay for things that we don't want to be associated with" which is their right.

FALSE, they are not blocking customers buying adult games using their system, they are focing the stores to remove the adult content unless they will block all customers that would buy very christian products too.

Would make sense if you were telling the truth and VISA would refuse your money if you are not a religious extremist but the reality is they they force their duopoly to remove LEGAL products from market places.

Re: Steam, Itch.io are pulling ‘porn’ games. Critics say it's a slippery slope

#872

Post by pessimizer »

advael wrote: post #863

It's crazy to me that people can simultaneously understand that censorship is bad and still think we can allow for exceptions for things like "obscenity/pornography" or "hate speech" Free expression means that objectionable things will be said, even published. There are certainly hairy exceptions, like doxxing, slander, or incitement to violence that can put people in immediate danger, but stuff like this clearly doe…

> There are certainly hairy exceptions, like doxxing, slander, or incitement to violence

You seem to have chosen three hairy exceptions, why not four or five?

> stuff like this clearly doesn't fall in that category

Those categories?

Or are you saying that doxxing, slander and "incitement" to violence are three things that can put people into immediate danger, so the single category is "things that can put people in immediate danger"?

Are arguments that doxxing and slander are things that can put people into immediate danger any stronger than the arguments that pornography/obscenity and hate speech put people into immediate danger?

In fact, doxxing is usually extremely legal. The thing that should obviously be illegal is legal.

On the other hand, hate speech can aggravate criminal charges and obscenity is still actually illegal (while pornography isn't necessarily considered obscene any more.)

I guarantee you have a counterpart who thinks it's obvious to everyone that hate speech and pornography cause real harm, where doxxing and slander are journalism and incitement to violence is activism or self-defense.

Re: Steam, Itch.io are pulling ‘porn’ games. Critics say it's a slippery slope

#873

Post by watwut »

SoftTalker wrote: post #866
advael wrote: post #863

It's crazy to me that people can simultaneously understand that censorship is bad and still think we can allow for exceptions for things like "obscenity/pornography" or "hate speech" Free expression means that objectionable things will be said, even published. There are certainly hairy exceptions, like doxxing, slander, or incitement to violence that can put people in immediate danger, but stuff like this clearly doe…

This isn't censorship. This is VISA/MC saying "you can't pay for porn with our service" or more broadly, "you can't pay for things that we don't want to be associated with" which is their right.

Imo, using this argument in this context not just strains the credibility, it makes argument itself sound like fake excuse. VISA/MC would not be associated with porn at all if they did not pressured on steam to remove the games. That is simply not true and non existent threat. It is censorship, plain and simple in its true original meaning.

I do not think VISA/MC do care about freedom of speech or anything of the sort. Nor they ever claimed to do so. But we do not have to twist ourselves into pretzels to pretend this is not censorship just because censorship is ugly word.

Re: Steam, Itch.io are pulling ‘porn’ games. Critics say it's a slippery slope

#874

Post by watwut »

yownie wrote: post #870

and yet people still refuse to understand the utility of bitcoin/lightning protocol in relation to situations like this (or cutting donations to Greenpeace or Wikileaks)

Bitcoin is not useful for buying steam games, steam ended up that particular experiment due to it ... not being useful.

Re: Steam, Itch.io are pulling ‘porn’ games. Critics say it's a slippery slope

#875

Post by godelski »

simplify wrote: post #815
godelski wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're the only one who asserted a percentage. So allow me to clarify, when I wrote that comment I had no belief that a law need be 100% effective for it to be a useful law. I also believe there's a lot of room between 100% effective and "backfiring". I don't believe this is a binary situation but there's a spectrum (that isn't one dimensional) I hope with this added context that my previous comment will make much mo…

I misread your "It always backfires" comment as making something illegal always backfires, rather than the desire to make things simple always backfires (note that "always" implies 100%). So now I see all you're saying is "be careful", which is fine.

This is just how people speak. Sometimes qualifiers are critical, sometimes they are a bit of exaggeration. But always doesn't mean always because only a sith deals in absolutes.

Re: Steam, Itch.io are pulling ‘porn’ games. Critics say it's a slippery slope

#876

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

TimorousBestie wrote: post #867
SoftTalker wrote: post #866

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't censorship. This is VISA/MC saying "you can't pay for porn with our service" or more broadly, "you can't pay for things that we don't want to be associated with" which is their right.

They have a govt-supported duopoly in the States, which is generally speaking why some folks believe they lack the right to refuse service in this case.

Exactly. Your rights of association should be carefully weighted against the government-granted cartel you have been granted.

Re: Steam, Itch.io are pulling ‘porn’ games. Critics say it's a slippery slope

#878

Post by cma »

koakuma-chan wrote: post #869
SoftTalker wrote: post #866

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't censorship. This is VISA/MC saying "you can't pay for porn with our service" or more broadly, "you can't pay for things that we don't want to be associated with" which is their right.

Why not ditch them and use crypto?

What about FedNow? They would be bound by 1st amendment.

Re: Steam, Itch.io are pulling ‘porn’ games. Critics say it's a slippery slope

#879

Post by lynndotpy »

xur17 wrote: post #225
lynndotpy wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure about Ethereum's equivalent, but 'Lightning' just reintroduces the problem of having one person act like a payment processor.

Not sure I follow.

A node in the Lightning network (to simplify a lot) become the payment processor that would be targeted.

(But it's kind of spurious- in practice, Coinbase, Block, etc. would be targeted far before someone running a Lightning node would be. The larger point is that very few people would interact with Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies as a peer in the network.)

Re: Steam, Itch.io are pulling ‘porn’ games. Critics say it's a slippery slope

#880

Post by benrutter »

advael wrote: post #863

It's crazy to me that people can simultaneously understand that censorship is bad and still think we can allow for exceptions for things like "obscenity/pornography" or "hate speech" Free expression means that objectionable things will be said, even published. There are certainly hairy exceptions, like doxxing, slander, or incitement to violence that can put people in immediate danger, but stuff like this clearly doe…

I suppose I think what you've said - not specifically regarding itch, but I'm on board with some kinds of curbs on speech like hate speech.

I don't think it's a complex position though, I think free speech is good. But I think other things like people's ability to leave lives free from abuse is good as well.

Sometimes free speech can be in conflict with something else that's good. You don't have to agree on the specific, but I think it's at least a coherent non-crazy position.

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