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The $25k car is going extinct?

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Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#871

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am surprised no one mentioned the 'SUV loophole' of US regulations that effectively boosted the SUVs (off-road vehicles are classified as non-passenger automobiles with everything that entails, notably much less stringent emission standards) and made the small cars unprofitable to make in comparison. This has become the irrelevant part because "does it have an electric motor in the powertrain" has become more imp…

Only if you keep them for a long time. Most people drive around 15k miles, the gas difference ends up to about $2500/yr. If you drive a lot, different story.

The Corolla hybrid is only $1500 more than the base model and gets 50MPG combined vs 35MPG. The break even for 15k miles/year is 2.5-4.3 years given the highest and lowest US prices as of today (California@$4.59, Texas@$2.70).

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#872

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the man, I’ll admit in my early twenties I meet a few partners by being car free. I legit took a girl home after I asked her if she knew why the train was late. In Amsterdam at least one of the train stations has a piano. It becomes a 3rd place were people can make friends and socialize. We don’t have many 3rd places in the US where you can exist without spending money.

It is very interesting to read these threads as someone who doesn't live in the states.

Ohh it's much worse.

A lot of people barely make enough to pay rent before factoring in a car.

Your options end up being iffy used cars or financing. The used car market is a nightmare, you can easily end up with a lemon, but legally you have no real recourse.

If Bob sells Bill a used car, and the engine explodes 2 days later Bob owes Bill nothing.

This doesn't always happen, but it's a concern.

Finance a car and you'll probably spend a significant portion of your income just commuting.

Vs living in a transit centric city where bus/metro fair is a nominal cost

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#873

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MSRP of Honda Accord went from $15k-$30k in 2005 to $30k-$40k in 2025. MSRP of one model is also not perfect, but it's another data point.

2005 accord is a 2025 civic class wise

Yep, model inflation. I have an early 2000s Accord and it's smaller than most Civics I see on the road, and with fewer features than a base model Civic.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#874

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of loan rates out there for I could pay off my car tomorrow. But I'll have more money in the end keeping that cash in the bank. Why would I pay it off early?

Is the negotiation of these loans separate from the negotiation of the car price? If not I suspect the margin is just being shifted to the asset price

It depends. There are a whole bunch of weird complex financial interactions between the mfg, the dealer, and the loan provider (who is often also an arm of the manufacturer). There can definitely be situations where the dealer makes off better by getting you into a loan even though the loan provider is almost sure to lose money on it.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#875

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- boomers like classic sports and muscle cars. They feel nostalgia towards them because those are the cars high school and college kids used to actually drive - people who are looking for affordable cars buy used. That market has evaporated. I remember in the late 90s-2000s the newspaper had a junker section where you could get cars (that started) for $100. Imagine what you could get for $2000 - when inflation goes u…

Cash for Clunkers was a hell of a program.

I have been thinking more about that recently. It’s very strange we convinced ourselves we were being economically efficient while destroying productive resources.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#876
post #835

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP, but this seems like a decent source for the claim. It lists 12 cars under $25K MSRP: https://www.motortrend.com/features/cheapest-new-cars That said, we picked up one of the cars on this list for well under $15,000 in 2010. (And it's still going strong! Never needed a major repair.) Which doesn't really mean anything, just throwing out yet another anecdote to highlight that nobody's presented any information…

> Not OP, but this seems like a decent source for the claim. It lists 12 cars under $25K MSRP: https://www.motortrend.com/features/cheapest-new-cars I need a source for the year 2005 not 2025. Of course, it is easier to have a source for 2025.

Here is 2005 list:

- Chevrolet Aveo – Starting at $9,455

- Kia Rio – Starting at $10,570

- Hyundai Accent – Starting at $10,999

- Toyota Echo – Starting at $11,110

- Ford Focus ZX3 – Starting at $13,365

- Chevrolet Cavalier – Starting at $13,405

- Chrysler PT Cruiser – Starting at $13,995

- Dodge Neon SXT – Starting at $14,195

- Pontiac Sunfire – Starting at $14,200 see: https://www.kbb.com/pontiac/sunfire/2005

-Saturn Ion – Starting at $14,430 - see https://www.kbb.com/saturn/ion/2005

It is based on this links: https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/top-10/top-10-cars-under... This is article from 2005 (at least metadata says that). The prices are verified via kbb.com which has original MSRP for all used cars.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#877
post #776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything that takes control away from me I am not interested in. I am both legally and financially liable for anything the car does. I am also not trusting my life to some poorly maintained software written by someone in another country.

Do you drive a fuel injected car or do you prefer the “control” of adjusting your carburetor? Not being snarky, just pointing out we’re often guilty of picking and choosing rather than applying first principles.

That don't directly take control away from me.

I am specifically talking about things that take over control of the vehicle.

I've had lane assist fight me when trying to move lanes. I apparently wasn't turning the wheel enough and it thought I was drifting (I wasn't).

I've had another hire car refuse to move backwards without me putting it into reverse. It had anti-rollback measures. I didn't know what was going on. All my other cars would rollback (I drive manuals). Now I know technically you shouldn't coast backwards but it was maybe a foot.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#878
post #577

This is a great example of how factually incorrect narratives - so long as they align with a preferred agenda (which is that things are not affordable any more) - it gets upvoted. Reality check: - In 2025, there are 12 new car models available under $25,000 - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) So the premise that “cars used to be much more affordable” is not true. This…

I can't speak to the specific years, but there's no doubt that a fair number of small, less expensive, cars have been knocked off - the Rio, the Prius C, the Fiesta... I think there are more than just those (though maybe some of it is lineup consolidation, considering the eventual Kia K3). At the same time, some of the remaining options have had (IMO) huge MSRP hikes.

But you are right that a lot of the price increases relatively track inflation. It may just be that cars going up at the rate of inflation and used cars depreciating less, combined with uneven wage growth and high maintenance and repair costs is leaving a lot of consumers feeling pressured.

Though it's hard to track this down in a way that seems accurate, cars that are under 10 years old and 100k miles always seem remarkably close to MSRP to me, while those that are over those thresholds often seem massively depreciated, but that's anecdote and I haven't done a study. Interest rates me be another piece of the story. When I last bought a car they were basically zero or 1% I think. It gave the latitude to use debt w/o much thought. Very different now.

Which is to say, I do think it's plausible that it's true that some segment of the car market is tracking inflation, and that cars aren't affordable any more.

If that's the case, there's probably more going on, and it may not all be on the cars. Once again, venturing into anecdote, I know multiple people who've had significant wage increases since prepandemic, don't have much if any lifestyle inflation, and somehow seem to be in the position of finding cars and homes less affordable despite making quite significantly more. I'm not really sure exactly what's going on, but the way people are feeling doesn't match the numbers for a fair number of folks with above average incomes, and I can only imagine it must be a lot worse for those w/ less.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#880

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MSRP of Honda Accord went from $15k-$30k in 2005 to $30k-$40k in 2025. MSRP of one model is also not perfect, but it's another data point.

2005 accord is a 2025 civic class wise

2005 accord is 5 inchers longer, a couple inches wider and has a longer wheelbase. This results in larger interior space and trunk space. While cars are in fact getting bigger and heavier, in this case it's not as egregious.
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