Earlier quoted context omitted.
yes, but the persons point wasn't that its good/bad but wether its the best disinfectant (in my interpretation that means effectiveness) so, censorship may be morally bad or wrong and also very effective, and its the fact that it is effective and working is why there is a very loud objection to it thats all im pointing out sorry if maybe we are talking past each other!
> yes, but the persons point wasn't that its good/bad but wether its the best disinfectant (in my interpretation that means effectiveness) And my point is, people can make a big deal about something because they think it's wrong, regardless of whether it ultimately works.
Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society
871–880 of 906 posts
Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society
#872Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Why is it race instead of class and not race AND class? It's not race and class because race has eclipsed class in the public discourse. I don't know why that is but if I was being cynical I'd say it's to sow division and limit effectiveness. On And vs Or, there's limited space in public discourse. Introducing additional issues necessitates that space being divided into smaller chunks. Grouping the issues also only…
We will have to agree to disagree. I predict that if the left becomes more aggressive they will win more elections. No one is going to vote for wimpy liberals, whose hearts no longer beat
My observation has been that orthodoxy and too many causes has alienated a lot of people that were traditionally aligned with the left.
In the UK a recent example would be the collapse of the red wall. Constituencies that had been held by Labour for up to ~80 years flipped. A key factor was that the working class in the area felt that Labour was no longer interested in representing them, with the focus having shifted to social justice and right wing press latching onto this as an angle of attack.
Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society
#873Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your take away from the original study was fear of crime? Now I understand what our problem is — your basic logic skills. This is like a basic LSAT question you got wrong. Edit: the quote is right on. Your statement that it wasn’t racism missed the point of the authors quote. Try again and see if you can see where you missed.
Note the quotation marks. The finding is that of the study authors, not mine, easily verified if you check the link. Of course Vox didn't report that.
"According to the FBI, African-Americans accounted for 39.6% of all homicide offenders in 2019, with whites 29.1%, and "Other" 3.0%".[1]
So 14% of the population, but almost 40% of the homicides[2]. That's a rate almost 3x higher than you would expect from the population numbers. And whites are 61.6% of the population, so their share of homicides is slightly less than 1/2 of the expected rate. If you combine these two figures, you find that blacks have a 6x higher per/capita share of homicide offenders than whites.
Now this is all very unfortunate, problematic etc. But unconsciously associating blackness more strongly with crime than whiteness is not racism, but sound statistical reasoning based on the real world[3]. And humans are generally very good natural unconscious statisticians, particularly when it comes to assessing personal danger.
And please note that I am not in any way claiming that this association is "intrinsic" or that it is fair, or saying anything about the causes of the disparity in crime rates whatsoever[4]. I am just showing the unambiguous fact that the association is based on reality.
Also note that even if, in spite of the facts, you still hold that associating blackness with crime is solely or primarily due to racism, it would still not support your original assertion that "For example, when whites are told that the legal system is unjust to blacks, they tend to support it more." and certainly not your assertion that "most whites do, at some level, prefer blacks not to do well." That's just complete BS you made up.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_S...
[2] Homicides tend to be a good indicator because they are fairly unambiguous (there's a dead person) and also tend to have less chance of inconsistent investigation than other crimes.
[3] Note that this only applies to such unconscious associations as was the case here. It does not justify other sorts of inferences, particularly on an individual level.
[4] Except that, particularly for homicides, it isn't the result of unfair policing practices in any way that comes close to explaining the actual disparity, see [2] as well as the research on racial disparities in the criminal justice system, which came to more a 10% divergence, so nowhere near the 6x difference we see here.
Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society
#874Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ah the classic: it’s worse elsewhere so we don’t need to look in the mirror and be accountable for our actions; out of hand dismissal. Just because you’re not ready to look in the mirror does not give you the right to stop others. I hope you get there soon. I’m not blaming white people as a monolith, but that seems to be what you want to interpret from my post. Telling. I’m blaming the people who made the choice to h…
> suggesting victims of state sponsored abuses should shut up and take it If that leads to a better outcome for them, why not? I don't believe they should live in poverty for the sake of achieving some weird intergenerational justice. > What qualifies you to make sweeping off the cuff assertions about all black Americans? Oh, but I'm actually not talking about all black Americans. Are you aware that the racism you ta…
I don’t think you understand what rehabilitation entails, America, as a general rule, does not facilitate rehabilitation so it is outside our cultural knowledge. Generally speaking this rehabilitation in practice looks like restorative Justice. Punitive systems lead to worse societal outcomes. Undertaking a restorative Justice project for victims of American subjugation would require actions like paying restitution, expunging criminal records, drawing the architects and agents of these systems of repression under charges for their crimes, returning land stolen from indigenous peoples, etc.
This is not the gotcha you think it is, and if you’re going to refer to a small minority of a demographic you should name them so it doesn’t seem like you’re moving the goalposts when I take you at your words. Police brutality is not a subject up for debate, this term refers to police using force in excess of what they were trained to do. A severe problem in police departments across the country fostered by a toxic culture and poor oversight. What Nigerian or any Americans think about it is a pointless exercise. Either we hold violent criminals to account or we don’t. In America some violent criminals are excessively punished, others are not punished at all and instead celebrated for mercilessly assaulting the right people. These are systemic failures.
enforced victim hood mentality is a racist dog whistle and I’m not going to engage with you further if you can’t help but use hateful language. This article could be helpful in your understanding, however you will need to do the work of relating their examples to America and considering the adjustments to your outlook needed to drop the dog whistles and underlying prejudices.
Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society
#875Earlier quoted context omitted.
CRT and gender studies should not be part of the high school curriculum in public schools and should not receive any sort of government funding in universities because at best they are pseudoscience. Private institutions not receiving government funding should teach whatever they like, including white nationalism. Discrimination based on race should either be allowed in all circumstances or disallowed in all circumst…
It didn't take long for my point to be proven in a dramatic act of unaware self-parody. Thanks for making it perfectly clear to OP (I mean, original question asker) - if OP was indeed, genuinely unaware of what far right wing narcissistic rage looks like, which i kind of doubt. I can be racist (teach white nationalism), you can't call me racist (that's the dread cultural cultural marxism again!). I should be subject…
Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society
#876Earlier quoted context omitted.
Pro-tip: being a "toxic toss-pot" should not be a reason for getting fired. People should not be fired for any non-criminal behavior outside of their workplace, even if it's racist. Employers who fire people over non-criminal supposedly "racist" behavior should be sued and made to pay big bucks.
Then you have an extreme far-left position, way to the left of the labour movement. But let me guess, only in the case of fascists?
Also, I don't know exactly how far this is from the "opinion" of the so-called "labor movement" given that something closer to this than to anglosphere practice is the reality in most of continental Europe currently.
Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society
#877Earlier quoted context omitted.
> suggesting victims of state sponsored abuses should shut up and take it If that leads to a better outcome for them, why not? I don't believe they should live in poverty for the sake of achieving some weird intergenerational justice. > What qualifies you to make sweeping off the cuff assertions about all black Americans? Oh, but I'm actually not talking about all black Americans. Are you aware that the racism you ta…
Why are you assuming that people will live in poverty if we address historical injustices? I’ve addressed this elsewhere but if that were to occur we would have failed at righting these wrongs and invest even more resources to correct this wrong if we had done it correctly the first time. Poverty in America is a governmental failure, and in some cases is intentional (racism is behind the intentional subjugation of th…
Essentially what you're saying is: if we try policy X and it doesn't work, we need to try even harder. Rinse and repeat.
This is a religious mindset.
You know perfectly well that most of your described actions will never happen. And that is exactly why you put them on your list: it protects you from the evidence that your policy doesn't work. When it fails, you can always claim that we didn't do enough.
> enforced victim hood mentality is a racist dog whistle
Back at you. Your messages reek of White Savior complex.
Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society
#878Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why are you assuming that people will live in poverty if we address historical injustices? I’ve addressed this elsewhere but if that were to occur we would have failed at righting these wrongs and invest even more resources to correct this wrong if we had done it correctly the first time. Poverty in America is a governmental failure, and in some cases is intentional (racism is behind the intentional subjugation of th…
> if that were to occur we would have failed at righting these wrongs and invest even more resources to correct this wrong Essentially what you're saying is: if we try policy X and it doesn't work, we need to try even harder. Rinse and repeat. This is a religious mindset. You know perfectly well that most of your described actions will never happen. And that is exactly why you put them on your list: it protects you f…
You’re ascribing motivations to me when you don’t understand the definitions of the words you use. I don’t want to make you feel bad, but you might be wise to look up some things before you speak about them.
White savior complex is used to describe people who try and solve problems for people they pity. I suspect you may treat empathy and sympathy as synonymsthey are not. I’m not trying to solve any problems for any groups I’m not part of. What I am is an ally who strives to understand the realities experienced by marginalized groups and I am willing to adjust my perspective toincorporate new (to me) information. I recognize that America only has democratic freedom for rich white men and that in order to make a freer society for all there need to be systemic changes and accountability for the consequences of this power structure must be had. By learning about the experiences of marginalized people I can incorporate their views into my mine and can in solidarity for the solutions these people demand.
Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society
#879Earlier quoted context omitted.
Exposure is neither a sufficient nor necessary condition. But exposure increases the propagation. You have this realization yourself when you say "grew up surrounded by", which is one way people get exposed. There are many case studies in the real world. "Go find a racist podcast and see how many episodes it takes for you to start thinking that jews and black people are inferior." That is what happens, though. Not wi…
You say 'exposure' but then you discuss powerful orators and crowd dynamics. These aren't the same at all. Also I don't think the Nazis and Hutus were made into racists by academic discussion of genetics, and I don't think that people who study genetic factors of IQ are more likely to be Nazi-sympathetic. It's not like the Nazis were scientific racists, they were pseudo-scientific racists - they started out racist an…
I didn't just discuss that. I also discussed mass shooters who were radicalized by these ideas that they read in online forums. No orators.
> Also I don't think the Nazis and Hutus were made into racists by academic discussion of genetics
Scientific racism is just one instantiation of it. Not every bad outcome of racism is going to be traced back to scientific racism.
But I will say that scientific racism was a part of Nazi thought. And the mass shooter who wrote the N word on his barrel, and Dylan Roof, were inspired by scientific racism. You can read his manifesto for yourself, or you can see Dylan Roof's interview on Youtube.
> The pro-censorship side needs to prove the science->racism pathway
I really don't see the point of this. I'm not even talking about science or exclusively about scientific racism. You're the one who pivoted the conversation in that direction.
Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society
#880Earlier quoted context omitted.
Exposure is neither a sufficient nor necessary condition. But exposure increases the propagation. You have this realization yourself when you say "grew up surrounded by", which is one way people get exposed. There are many case studies in the real world. "Go find a racist podcast and see how many episodes it takes for you to start thinking that jews and black people are inferior." That is what happens, though. Not wi…
> That is what happens, though. If you genuinely think listening to racists would turn you into a racist I really do encourage you to try it so you learn you don't need to fear hearing bad ideas. Researchers and activists spend countless hours doing exactly that, listening to what racists are saying, lurking in their online communities, and analyzing their rhetoric and membership. It doesn't turn them into racists. H…
I just gave you evidence that it does by pointing to specific case studies throughout history. You then proceed with an assertion that it doesn't, backed up by you saying that less than 100% of people who view racist material become racists (well, of course, not everyone that's exposed to a virus becomes infected). This discussion is going nowhere.