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Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

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Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#871

Hmm... > To Soundararajan, Google was long overdue for a conversation on caste equity. Pichai, the CEO, “is Indian and he is Brahmin and he grew up in Tamil Nadu. There is no way you grow up in Tamil Nadu and not know about caste because of how caste politics shaped the conversation,” Soundararajan told The Post. “If he can make passionate statements about Google’s [diversity equity and inclusion] commitments in the…

This Soundarajan is a known anti-India baiter. She also trolled Twitter and its CEO for his caste [1]. Google did the right thing by keeping her out. [1] https://twitter.com/dalitdiva/status/1465358123640655875

anti-India? Do you mean anti-highest-Indian-caste or something?

both the OP and your citation are her complaining about a tech CEO being Brahmin and avoiding the caste conversation...

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#872
post #752

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You treat everyone equally. Speak up against anyone who doesn't. So... how do you square that with preventing a caste bias activist from speaking at Google? What Soundararajan does is quite literally speaking up against people who don't treat others equally.

I'm not in favor of preventing anyone from speaking. I started this by seconding parent's point that a lot of times it's better to move on with making a success of life and not know or not focus on the potential motivation of people who might be quietly discriminating against you.

FWIW, that wasn't the implication I got from this:

> So sure: Introduce new ways that people can feel like they've been discriminated against. That's the way it's done! More and more identity groups! Caste, why not? Hey, we can even celebrate it.

That sounded pretty unconditionally dismissive of the issue under discussion. I'm happy you've moderated your tone.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#873
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Dalit myself, I wrote a Dalit 101 for non Indian audience. https://thelit.substack.com/p/dalit-101

Your write-up is quite simplistic and hence is very much open to misinterpretation by non-Indians. I highly suggest that you consult the works of Patrick Olivelle and Susan Bayly to get at the real History of "Caste" (Varna vs. Jati etc.). That way you can present what is actually stated in the Hindu Scriptures vs. Their misinterpretation and later practice within Indian Society. Excerpt from https://en.wikipedia.org…

>That way you can present what is actually stated in the Hindu Scriptures vs. Their misinterpretation and later practice within Indian Society.

Whether or not Hindu scriptures really support these practices is a matter for believers, the concern here is how it's actually practiced in the real world and the resulting discrimination harming actual people.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#874

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people i have referenced are experts/scholars in this field (and non-Indians to boot) so you can be sure that it is as close to factual as you can get. The Wikipedia page contains links to their papers/books which you can refer for edification. What are the cliff notes, because every time I bring this up here one gets accused of being a bigot and missing the nuances of what is essentially nepotism and racism th…

My advice is to use your commonsense. Almost all of what you have seen/experienced can be explained by one Human Animal trying to "eat" another within our Cultural/Social frameworks using whatever means is available at hand. Thus you can have Nepotism, Favouritism, Spitefulness, Back-stabbing, Victim role-playing etc. You have to figure it out based on the person and the context. Don't jump to preconceived notions li…

>by one Human Animal trying to "eat" another within ....

This sums up your world view. I am sitting here thinking we are all debating with someone who wants to improve society for all humans...

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#875

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear a lot of instances of favoritism or nepotism in what you describe, possibly even corruption, but not much sounds like caste-based discrimination. "Incompetent person hires a lot of people they know instead of qualified candidates" is not really what's being discussed here, and I think Ms. Soundararajan would agree. As a side note, this illustrates quite neatly why most of us who come from India are somewhat re…

Well said. Americans have no idea of what caste-based discrimination looks like and hence merely use it to foist their own prejudices (i.e. "they terk err jerbs") onto the Indian community. Indians have such diversity amongst themselves (North vs. South, State vs. State, Linguistic, Religious etc.) that anything can be used as a bone of contention (real or imagined). The first thing to realize is that people with gri…

I think you should be able to criticize the discrimination that happens by Indian managers just like you should be able to criticize racist cops.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#876
post #854

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A much more likely explanation on the bowling thing is that physical fitness is not required to be a good bowler. Consider: -There are lower-paying sports where fitness does matter, and they all have fit athletes at the top. -There are way more conventionally fit folks than there are pro athlete slots; It's not like the select few fit people in the world are being exhausted before they can fill the ranks of all profe…

You're throwing 12 - 16 pound balls about 16 mph in a way that causes the ball to spin. That takes a decent amount of arm and upper body strength to do it well consistently. Some amount of fitness is required. If bowling paid like the NBA, you'd see very few non-fit pro bowlers. At $5 million over 42 years, you bowl because you like it, not because it makes money. People who are fit but are otherwise not good enough…

I feel like you kinda dodged the point here by shifting the definition of fitness.

I would speculate that most top tier bowlers do have the arm and upper body strength to do it well.

They also have a variety of body-fats and other attributes that don't particularly impact performance.

>If bowling paid like the NBA, you'd see very few non-fit pro bowlers.

Why do you think that would be the case if it doesn't impact performance?

If chess paid like the NBA, we still wouldn't expect top players to look like NBA athletes.

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#877

Hmm... > To Soundararajan, Google was long overdue for a conversation on caste equity. Pichai, the CEO, “is Indian and he is Brahmin and he grew up in Tamil Nadu. There is no way you grow up in Tamil Nadu and not know about caste because of how caste politics shaped the conversation,” Soundararajan told The Post. “If he can make passionate statements about Google’s [diversity equity and inclusion] commitments in the…

This Soundarajan is a known anti-India baiter. She also trolled Twitter and its CEO for his caste [1]. Google did the right thing by keeping her out. [1] https://twitter.com/dalitdiva/status/1465358123640655875

Advocating for the condemnation of casteism is only anti-India if you think casteism is an essential property of India that cannot and should not be changed.

Do you think casteism is an essential property of India that should not be changed, throwaway_1928?

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#878

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ambedkar said similar things to muslims as well, you can stop hating on Hindus. Hinduism does not condone honour killings, it’s a cultural thing. The amount of hate and comments from you is appalling, while everything you say is not wrong but please be civil.

hating on Hindus? I'm not sure what's hateful here for describing actual events. The ones receiving the caste oppression are also Hindus. Dalits are not Hindus you mean?

Hmm yes, really sad situation here, I hope people change

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#879

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello ? Any source please? Anyone can talk nonsense and say it’s a personal recount

Think about the “MeToo” movement, do you think it was nonsense before? Obviously until this movement there aren’t any sources. In this case believe it or not, it’s a personal anecdote and true story. I’m not interested in revealing the identity or source in case of internet violence

Okay fair enough :) but some people on HN blame entire people or religion as if they are the perpetrators. Like it’s affecting my mental health, can’t stop thinking of people blaming my religion for it. I am sad

Re: Google cancelled a talk on caste bias

#880
Ah! Perfect occasion to quote from the paragon of pacifism and morality.

“The ideal bhangi of my conception would be a Brahmin par-excellence, possibly even excel him. It is possible to envisage-the existence of a Bhangi without a Brahmin. But without the former the latter could not be, It is the Bhangi who enables society to live. A Bhangi does for society what a mother does for her baby. A mother washes her baby of the dirt and insures his health. Even so the Bhangi protects and safeguards the health of that entire community by maintaining sanitation for it. The Brahmin’s duty is to look after the sanitation of the soul, the Bhangi’s that of the body of society. But there is a difference in practice ; the Brahmin generally does not live up to his duty, the bhangi does willy-nilly no doubt.

But that is not all. My ideal bhangi would know the quality of night-soil and urine. He would keep a close watch on these and give a timely warning to the individual concerned. Thus, he will give a timely notice of the results of his examination of the excreta. That presupposes a scientific knowledge of the requirements of his profession. He would likewise be an authority on the subject of disposal of night-soil in small villages as well as big cities and his advice and guidance in the matter would be sought for and freely given to society.

It goes without saying that he would have the usual learning necessary for reaching the standard here laid down for his profession. Such an ideal bhangi while deriving his livelihood from his occupation, would approach it only as a sacred duty. In other words he would not dream of amassing wealth out of it. He would consider himself responsible for the proper removal and disposal of all the dirt and night-soil within the area which he serves and regard the maintenance of healthy and sanitary condition within the same as the summum bonum of his existence.” – Mahatma Gandhi

More: https://scribe.rip/@dalitdiva/why-it-is-time-to-dump-gandhi-...

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