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Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

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Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#871

Post by grapeskin »

cryptonector wrote: post #789
titanomachy wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we stop providing health care to young people, then everyone will just die and there won't be any old people left to profit off of.

No, more likely you'd see a ton of alternative medicine and self-diagnostic/treatment options for young people. I'm not entirely sure that I wouldn't want this.

Yeah, young people rubbing tea tree oil on their tumors, drinking spoonfuls of olive oil to cure their appendicitis, and vaporizing fruit peel oils to “cure” kids of infectious diseases. Just what the world needs more of.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#872

Post by tintor »

mfer wrote: post #46

I've spent a fair amount of time talking with nurses about the problems. I'm related to a bunch of people who are nurses across disciplines (ER, ICU, med/surg, etc). It's been enlightening hearing them talk about the problems... 1. Many new nurses make the same or more and long time nurses. It's frustrating when the nurse in charge with the most experience is making less than new nurses. Some hospitals are even tryin…

"3. IT systems that they have to use were designed by people who have not talked with the workers who use them."

This is a very common issue with enterprise systems, since incentives aren't aligned. Users of such systems aren't the ones choosing them.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#873

Post by belval »

tubalcain wrote: post #326
belval wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt that it's as simple as that. Nurses are also leaving in Canada and we don't have insurance breathing down their neck.

Canada's solution will be to mass-import nurses from the third world who will do twice as much work for half as much money. Mark my words. It's already happened with low-wage fast food jobs. Health care is next. Nurses and doctors will be replaced by poorly-trained third-world counterparts.

> Canada's solution will be to mass-import nurses from the third world

Yes that's basically what Quebec (and probably other provinces) is doing.

> Do twice as much work for half as much money

I might get tomatoes thrown at me for this, but anecdotally "third-world" nurses are usually not as good due to having experience on different equipment, drugs and often languages. It's better than having no one to cover the shift, but it can be seriously dangerous due to lack of training on specific protocols.

They get paid the exact same amount of money and are in the same union, so they absolutely don't do "twice as much work for half as much money".

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#874

Post by bob_neumann »

Vaccine. Mandate.

It cost something like 15% of the nursing workforce, people who were already Covid immune, since they had worked the Covid front lines from day one.

But we pretended the vaccine helped stop the spread of Covid. It doesn't. And we pretended the vaccine had no meaningful risks. It does. And we pretended that natural (recovery) immunity didn't exist. It not only exists, but it's far stronger than anything a vaccine can do.

And yet we pretended anyway. And now we're paying the price. Pretending makes for bad public policy.

There are a lot of things we need to stop pretending about.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#875

Post by galangalalgol »

redwall_hp wrote: post #616
mfer wrote: post #46

I've spent a fair amount of time talking with nurses about the problems. I'm related to a bunch of people who are nurses across disciplines (ER, ICU, med/surg, etc). It's been enlightening hearing them talk about the problems... 1. Many new nurses make the same or more and long time nurses. It's frustrating when the nurse in charge with the most experience is making less than new nurses. Some hospitals are even tryin…

> Patients in COVID have become downright mean. Add this to the problems nurses have management and doctors (who are often rude and arrogant) and it's a poor culture. So...this is also the biggest reason (besides lack of pay or basic human dignity) that restaurants and retailers are having a lot more trouble finding employees. Rude (and sometimes violent) customers were already an issue, but they've become absolute a…

Those unruly passengers are frontline help desk that had to deal with a elementary teacher that had to deal with kids that had to deal with parents that had to deal with unruly passengers. Everyone is on edge because scarcity is making a comeback, and we are all paying that stress forward.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#876

Post by davesque »

I see a lot of people mentioning the poor working conditions of healthcare professionals. Things like low pay, long hours, mean patients, etc. These are undoubtedly all problems that largely fall on the shoulders of nurses.

The issue with entitled, mean patients strikes me. While I'm sure a fair bit of this is due to the way in which misinformation about COVID and other health issues spreads on social media, I have a hard time believing this is the primary cause of this grumpiness. It seems more likely that the average person is just fed up being taken to town by a completely inhumane system that really ought to be the most humane of systems. Nurses are the front line representatives of a system that exploits people when they are most vulnerable.

Now, I'm not saying nurses deserve this at all. They're not to blame for the state of things. But the observation might go some ways in explaining the psychology of the phenomenon.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#877

Post by galangalalgol »

mdavis6890 wrote: post #838
mumblemumble wrote: post #721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Invisible Hand works generally fine-ish for non-essential and commodity goods. People might be sad their favorite store went away, but, for the most part, life goes on. It seems to even be the least bad way to handle these sorts of things. It's a bit harder for me to see this as an acceptable approach to health care. Not every segment of the economy needs to be a constant drunkard's walk in search of maximum prof…

Will people pay more for stability and reliability? If so, then that is what businesses will optimize for. Businesses exist to give us what we want. Those that do it well are profitable, those that don’t aren’t. Keep in mind that the effort spent to make healthcare more stable could have instead been used to provide more healthcare overall. Or something else entirely, like shoes or haircuts. All services are not as g…

People are selfish, a dash of prisoner's dilemma, a pinch of tragedy of the commons, and you get businesses that serve individuals while failing society. Also efficiency is the enemy of robustness. No one wants to pay 10% more for slightly inferior hard drives, until a flood destroys the entire worlds production capacity. I consider myself a libertarianish sort of thinker, but market forces are a greedy algorithm, with all the downsides of that.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#878

Post by TMWNN »

tenpies wrote: post #497
soared wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without starting values and locations (COL) you can’t compare values in this way.

Canada is generally more expensive and taxes more (especially when you factor in sales taxes and such). To be honest, I am amazed that Canada has a healthcare system left. Decades of mismanagement and underinvestment aside, almost any Canadian healthcare worker can cross the border and instantly see a substantial pay bump and increase in QoL. I do imagine within the next 20 years, Canadian healthcare is going to look…

>Like something from an emerging market, where sure there is universal healthcare, but you generally avoid it if you have the means.

Already happened. It's impossible to get a primary care physician in the Maritime provinces and in BC.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#879

Post by jekskfnrn »

I-M-S wrote: post #634
JaimeThompson wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which things do you thing should change back and what should they change back into?

End to NIMBYism. Current homeowners should not be able to block new developments and encase a neighbourhood in amber.

they literally should be able to

that is the whole point of owning land and being a member of a community

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#880

Post by zamfi »

ayngg wrote: post #577
cogman10 wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one I think you are missing is that nurses are and have been overworked for a WHILE now. (that's what I get from /r/nursing) Hospitals have made sure they hire JUST ENOUGH nurses to cover shifts and no more. With covid hitting, this blew out the number of nurses needed resulting in a lot of "I know you've already worked 60 hours, but can you do another 20? we are short!". Rather than hiring permanent people or up…

I actually think that this is just one example of many across a ton of disciplines where people like Nurses basically are forced to deal with costs and responsibilities offloaded onto them from above the responsibility chain. Resources are eaten up at the top of the chain to their benefit and costs are offloaded down the chain until it reaches people like Nurses at the end of the line who have to deal with it because…

> academia which is rife with money sloshing around

In the academia that contains money sloshing around, the only grad students teaching are the ones who want to.

In the academia that doesn't contain money sloshing around, it's a different story.

But the truth is, no one in academia is making bank from academia directly -- not the grad students, certainly, but also not the adjuncts, or even the professors. You have to look higher up the chain (or, I guess, laterally?) for that. (Yes, there's the caveat that some faculty make good use of their prestigious affiliations or professional connections to increase income from outside of academia.)

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