Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles • Hacker News Board

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#871

Post by csa » Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 4:56 AM UTC

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #593

sparrc wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agreed. I could also buy a test prep book on amazon plus get a few others from the school and public libraries for a grand total of $15 spent on test prep. That's a lot cheaper than dedicating my working summer to smarmy volunteer/extra-curricular projects.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial…

> It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores

This is very unlikely to happen for East Asians or Indians.

> and not have to do any of the other trivial stuff that demonstrates that they can participate in the society in which they live.

This “trivial” stuff is often not trivial when done well.

- Sports, especially varsity athletics and Olympic sports, has social currency in elite circles. Some folks may not like the fact that this is true, but it’s foolish to deny that it’s true. In some cases, participation in sports actually develops character leadership skills.

- The things some high school students are able to do as “volunteers” can blow your mind. The soft skills that these activities can develop carry over really well to the “real world”. Lots of extracurriculars are BS, but the folks who do the BS ones aren’t getting into elite schools based on those.

- If I understand what you are saying, suggesting that immigrants should not need to have the skills to participate in society is mind boggling to me. Elite schools aren’t just looking to churn out brainiacs (and the real brainiacs are getting in on more brainy stuff than high SAT scores and perfect grades). They are looking to churn out people who will impact society. Honestly, some sort of impressive community involvement in the Indian community (as an example) is something that would be a strong part of an elite school application.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#872

Post by fsckboy » Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 4:57 AM UTC

lalwanivikas wrote: post #801

fsckboy wrote: post #765

as an MIT alum, a wealthy one who thought he would leave his fortune to MIT, I applaud this move, but it doesn't get me back to giving. MIT shouldn't have stopped requiring the tests in the first place, shouldn't have participated in that anti-intellectual "shut down tech" day or whatever that was, and shouldn't have done a dozen other things like cancel speakers to bow to a woke mob. MIT needs to sign up to the Chic…

> a wealthy one who thought he would leave his fortune to MIT A tangential question, so I apologize in advance but how did you build your fortune? I am curious if it was not through entrepreneurship.

for privacy reasons I remain non-specific and/or obfuscated about true facts of my life. However, after MIT and some entrepreneurship I did also study finance and that--along with lucky timing and my attraction to my own outside the box radical ideas and/or perhaps more luck--grew a modest nest egg into a large number of eggs in one basket.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#873

Post by csa » Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 4:58 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #717

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. For what it's worth, several of my old college friends are heavily involved with extra-curricular programs at the middle school and high school level across a few different states. From what I've observed, your generalization isn't true at all. The extra-curricular programs are actual…

Harvard doesn’t care about the extra curricular activities offered in midwestern high schools—sports (unless good enough to be recruited), 4H, playing an instrument, etc.

> Harvard doesn’t care about the extra curricular activities offered in midwestern high schools—sports (unless good enough to be recruited), 4H, playing an instrument, etc.

I beg to differ.

Anyone who does any of these things at a regional, national, or international level would probably be very strong candidates, assuming they have competitive grades and scores.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#874

Post by mattwad » Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 5:00 AM UTC

shmde wrote: post #484

gime_tree_fiddy wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure how it compares but India suffers through the same problem. It is essentially a rat race. A lot of those problems could be trick questions, but to be able to identify it, especially on a regular basis takes longer(when the question has less than a minute dedicated to it).

Yes exactly, I remember our Physics teacher in 11-12th grade used to just solve trick questions and asked us to remember shortcuts and rote memorise formulae. I completely fucked up the physics portion of entrance exam and got a mere 7 out of 120 on a national test. I fucking hate physics now.

I did great in Physics because I was a year ahead in math and had already taken Pre-Cal (Trigonometry). I thought it was incredibly dumb they were asking kids to calculate velocity and acceleration before they knew what an integral or differential equation is.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#875

Post by spoonjim » Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 5:09 AM UTC

mplewis wrote: post #668

lightup wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but I'm sure some of the kids on his math team will be in the same boat even through they're mainly South Asian and Chinese. Backlash against them too it seems.

You are claiming that the University of Minnesota is systemically discriminating against South Asian and Chinese students? Can you back this claim up in any way?

Every university that is admitting for “diversity” is systematically discriminating against Asian students. This is not even an open secret, it’s just stated policy.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#876

Post by jackblemming » Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 5:13 AM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #165

jackblemming wrote: post #135

Have they considered trying leetcode instead? It seems to work for FANG.

You want to do a calc test instead? I wouldn't even complain. If the average leetcode is hard for someone they're probably going to suck at even just integration e^z over the unit circle showing your work.

We could even tell them it demonstrates “problem solving” and “critical thinking” skills when they ask how leetcode is relevant on day to day university life.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#877

Post by a-dub » Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 5:14 AM UTC

lupire wrote: post #854

a-dub wrote: post #808

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i mean... integrals are weird. there's a whole slew of ways of doing them and usually there's a handful of techniques that are taught for a handful of integrals of specific forms and then those show up on tests with the forms sometimes slightly hidden. how do you know it wasn't just forms and techniques you were unfamiliar with? any math you're unfamiliar with can appear as complexity for the sake of complexity.

Part of the point is that pointless trivia is on the curriculum. Math is usually the most immune of all subjects.

yeah... my point is the whole mythology around solving "difficult" problems. "difficult" is often conflated with "not previously exposed to."

similar to the mythology of the "10xer". is it brilliance, or is it having prior exposure to the right things?

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#878

Post by csa » Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 5:17 AM UTC

yes_really wrote: post #865

agar wrote: post #723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This thread is filled with people arguing false dichotomies: "test scores" vs. "fancy extra-curriculars" or "rich experiences" vs. "working class experiences." I recently saw one child into college, and have another on the way. I've spoken to many admissions officers, counselors, and similar folks making admissions choices for public and private universities. To a one, they all claim to be looking for two things: (1)…

> Some of the least interesting students are "box checkers" who have a bunch of disconnected extra-curriculars that don't show passion, direction, or a proclivity towards success. If a student defines "success" as "getting into college," then what will they do once they get there? Probably flounder. Yet if a student defines "success" as "playing a musical instrument really well" you'll think that he is well-rounded a…

> Yet if a student defines "success" as "playing a musical instrument really well" you'll think that he is well-rounded and deserves to get admitted.

East Asian female at my high school.

- 1st chair violin in the city youth orchestra

- perfect grades

- very high SAT scores

- no sports

- took or tested out of all of the classes in our high school except advanced and AP German… in three years

- admitted into MIT after her junior year

- IIRC, she had some volunteer activities in a science research lab, but nothing significant like being an author on a research paper.

She seemed to be well-rounded enough.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#879

Post by smokey_circles » Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 5:22 AM UTC

America deserves to go downhill if this seems like a good idea.

Standardized testing is a joke. There are other, better forms of tests. See: Europe

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#880

Post by zdragnar » Tue, Mar 29, 2022, 5:23 AM UTC

jerojero wrote: post #575

lliamander wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds nice. Those other things are great, but have little value in terms of academic success. I think that for people who do poorly in academics but well in those other areas should have other avenues of advancing themselves rather than being forced through the college funnel.

It could be nice if access to education is equitable. In chile we also have grades + standardized test + ranking (your position versus your cohort). But the top universities are filled with the top alumni from expensive private schools because they are usually 1. given inflated grades 2. trained to perform well on standardized tests (in their own schools, theyre rich so they can afford this). If you look at OECD stat…

The lower performing areas in the US tend to have one of two problems:

1) Very high percentage of immigrants and / or English as a second language learners. These students have multiple disadvantages.

2) A local culture that dismisses education. Two personal anecdotes: One poor rural white 6 year old boy swore at and otherwise rejected his teachers authority. She was a friend of mine and mentioned many kids are like that there because the parents are passing on their own behaviors. Other anecdote, a black friend who grew up in an dense inner city said he was locked at school by his peers for "acting white" when he tried to get decent grades.

Number 2 is obviously more prevalent, likely due to most jobs not actually needing a college diploma and not caring about your grades in some areas, and the persistent crime culture in others (gangs in the cities, meth in the country).