Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces • Hacker News Board

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#871

Post by thaumasiotes » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 9:43 AM UTC

KronisLV wrote: post #869

hbarka wrote: post #824

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> member states like Germany would have vetoed [Ukraine’s bid for NATO membership] Why is this often mentioned? What is Germany’s rationale and is this still a certainty? Perhaps these comments were more closely related to Schröder (because gas pipeline) but certainly a different generation now. edit: France and Germany were the two opposed countries.

Would also like to know this, because Germany being on Russia's side feels a bit... out of nowhere? A bit odd? Not something you'd expect. I mean, i can understand some controversy around the actions of Turkey because of a variety of reasons, but Germany?

> Germany being on Russia's side feels a bit... out of nowhere? A bit odd? Not something you'd expect.

What used to be East Germany then is Germany now. It's not exactly a crazy development.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#872

Post by sterlind » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 9:48 AM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #794

rob74 wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, as Sting once sang, "I hope the Russians love their children too" - in this case, one particular Russian...

Russians, like all people in all countries, do love their children and hope for a peaceful and safe life. The people at the top are the problem, again in every single country. Granted, some of those people at the top today are much bigger problem than others.

I hope the people at the top love their children too..

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#873

Post by pydry » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 9:49 AM UTC

wahern wrote: post #730

beloch wrote: post #703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine is not a NATO member, but Poland is. If Russia attacks a member of NATO then all members of NATO are obligated to join in defence militarily . Russia can attack non-NATO countries and intimidate NATO into doing nothing, but to attack a NATO member would automatically bring the whole alliance into the war. The whole point of alliances like NATO is to prevent countries from being picked off by a bully the way U…

> Talk of Ukraine joining NATO may well have been what triggered this war. There was zero chance Ukraine would have ever been admitted to NATO. Everybody understood that, including Putin and his generals. And while NATO and the U.S. maintained the official position (perhaps better characterized as a non-position) that any country, including Ukraine, remained free to apply to NATO, member states like Germany would hav…

>There was zero chance Ukraine would have ever been admitted to NATO.

"NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO."

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#874

Post by qwytw » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 9:50 AM UTC

stingraycharles wrote: post #825

rasz wrote: post #821

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ukraine is not a NATO member, but Poland is. If Russia attacks a member of NATO then all members of NATO are obligated to join in defence militarily. We lived once thru this in 1939. NO one will join in to defend Poland. Germany might even make another deal with Russia to "save EU".

Wasn’t the NATO founded in 1949? And doesn’t this imply we haven’t lived thru this, as the conditions of NATO did not yet apply in 1939?

Even still, I'm not sure the lack of political will in France/Britain after Poland was attacked was the reason it fell. The allies they just did not feel like they had capability to start and offensive against Germany and expected Poland to hold out much longer than it did.

Czechoslovakia would probably be a much better example (however NATO did not exactly agree to recognize the annexation of Crimea and the Donbas just to appease Putin).

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#875

Post by hef19898 » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 9:53 AM UTC

sterlind wrote: post #872

hef19898 wrote: post #794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russians, like all people in all countries, do love their children and hope for a peaceful and safe life. The people at the top are the problem, again in every single country. Granted, some of those people at the top today are much bigger problem than others.

I hope the people at the top love their children too..

I'm sure most do. The problem is that they stop there.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#876

Post by selfhoster11 » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 9:54 AM UTC

rmk wrote: post #578

selfhoster11 wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia were forced to shore up their vulnerable flank Russia wasn't forced to do anything. They could've merely quietly dropped two of their delusions: a) NATO was never going to attack them, unless it literally went crazy, or someone framed Russia so badly that a nuclear response was preferable to any other option. The West doesn't want to trigger a MAD scenario, and are keen to keep the post-WW2 peace and (in the…

Being comfortable in your neighborhood is not a delusion, it's a core priority most nation states will be willing to go to war over. If you are American, then you will likely not understand this because America is blessed with wonderful location: it does not have to contend with dozens of possibly unfriendly neighbors bordering it, which is a luxury that Russia, China, and India do not have. They are huge landmasses…

I am not American. I am from Poland, and we've been attacked without a provocation from both the east and the west, multiple times across several centuries. We're worried about Russia with good reason.

Since my nation was literally behind the Iron Curtain, I can assure you that Russia _has no right_ to invade neighbouring sovereign nations, no matter how "unsafe" they are feeling. Invading Ukraine is an attempt to externalise the cost of having a land buffer, by stealing said land from a nearby nation.

No matter how "cost effective" it is, it has a real price in human blood and suffering. Only a sociopath would agree it's a reasonable solution, if one were to be (or pretend to be) a good-faith geopolitical player. Which is the current perception of the Western stance on the NATO-Russia tensions from the perspective of ~everyone who cares about human rights and the right to national and personal self-determination.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#877

Post by KronisLV » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 9:54 AM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #871

KronisLV wrote: post #869

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would also like to know this, because Germany being on Russia's side feels a bit... out of nowhere? A bit odd? Not something you'd expect. I mean, i can understand some controversy around the actions of Turkey because of a variety of reasons, but Germany?

> Germany being on Russia's side feels a bit... out of nowhere? A bit odd? Not something you'd expect. What used to be East Germany then is Germany now. It's not exactly a crazy development.

That's actually a fair point, though somehow one also might expect the country to distance itself from certain aspects of its past, seeing how it's been a bit more progressive leaning. At least that's the impression that i've gotten from the past decade of news, at least up until talks of pipelines and whatnot started.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#878

Post by mvc » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 9:54 AM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #498

mvc wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we wait until they're doing this in Poland? I think I've seen this one before. Doesn't end well for anyone involved. Better to hit an enemy when they're not expecting it.

I don't mean to pick on you in particular, but the popular narrative pretty severely misunderstands what was so controversial about pre-WWII appeasement. The problem isn't that Chamberlain tried to avoid going to war or applied insufficient sanctions to prevent Hitler from conquering the Sudetenland - he approved of it, personally flying to Germany to give him permission, and then talking afterwards about how Hitler'…

I was against the Iraq war at the time. Still think it was a bad idea. I'm generally anti-war. But in this case, as in WW2 it's the only thing that will stop an agressor hell-bent on an idiological mission to restore the Soviet Union.

> and then talking afterwards about how Hitler's a peace loving guy who'll never invade anyone again.

We've had that stage already. It started in 2016. And instead of Chamberlain it was Trump.

Look at what he is saying. The parallels with "lebensraum" are there for all to see. What makes anyone think he will stop at Ukraine? If he is successful here, Poland will be next, mark my words.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#879

Post by pySSK » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 9:56 AM UTC

KronisLV wrote: post #869

hbarka wrote: post #824

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> member states like Germany would have vetoed [Ukraine’s bid for NATO membership] Why is this often mentioned? What is Germany’s rationale and is this still a certainty? Perhaps these comments were more closely related to Schröder (because gas pipeline) but certainly a different generation now. edit: France and Germany were the two opposed countries.

Would also like to know this, because Germany being on Russia's side feels a bit... out of nowhere? A bit odd? Not something you'd expect. I mean, i can understand some controversy around the actions of Turkey because of a variety of reasons, but Germany?

> Would also like to know this, because Germany being on Russia's side feels a bit... out of nowhere? A bit odd? Not something you'd expect.

Two reasons:

1. Germany depends on Russia for gas, and the two countries have business and economic ties

2. Germany and France are the main 'providers' in the EU, kinda like California, Texas, New York in the US. They have to pay more if they admit a big poor country like Ukraine (44m pop., and would be second poorest in EU after Greece. Pop. of Germany and France: 83m, 67m respectively).

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#880

Post by qwytw » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 9:57 AM UTC

hutrdvnj wrote: post #856

gambiting wrote: post #842

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if that's not the threshold uncrossable line, then there simply isn't one and all of this is completely worthless.

Exactly, then Putin himself could go to Washington kill Biden and everyone is doing nothing because of MAD. That's absurd.

That's why we still have conventional weapons. Also if Putin loses it completely (decides to attack a NATO country rather than attempts to personally murder Biden) I'd expect the CIA to organize some kind of a coup with the local oligarchs to get rid of him before launching nukes.