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FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

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Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#871
post #848

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is essentially that because we don't / cannot outlaw all ways to harm others, we cannot justify making other laws to avoid harming others? You are also strawmanning to assume that laws that punish bad parenting would immediately skip to the state raising the kids.

It's not an argument but a question. Should we try to minimize harm in society at the expense of individual freedoms, and if so how far do we take it? Having the state raise kids is being seriously discussed in places like Harvard Law Review as an ideological harm reduction measure. Should any freedom that could possibly be abused to harm others (such as right to own a gun, right to refuse a vaccine, right to own and…

Cherry picking moments to ask targeted questions is more or less a form of persuasive arguing.

All laws restrict freedoms to protect the wider society. This isn't a novel concept. Not being able to murder is a freedom deprived of you. The question of "should any freedom that could possibly be abused to harm others be eventually outlawed" is obviously "No". Law is not the only tool to encourage better behavior.

But passing laws to outlaw any of your examples doesn't mean we're saying "Yes" anymore than outlawing murder does. Those are just specific laws. The question is "which freedoms should be restricted to prevent individuals from harming others". Your original framing of the question makes it an all or nothing case, but its not.

The state does deprive people of rights to raise their kids if they're really awful parents. That does not mean that making smoking in a car with kids illegal guarantees that this would be the associated punishment.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#872
post #761

There are people with long term issues starting right after vaccination. Not safety issues, which everyone and their dog studies, just multi-month constant pain that will not kill you but just disables you from your normal life for months, that is not solvable by regular NSAIDs, as usual, and that you'll get no compensation for from anyone. I'm just interested in how common this is after vaccination, and perhaps when…

It's true that systematic surveillance of vaccine side effects is poor. For example, even when HPV vaccination of teenage girls became a thing, one of the obvious side effects you'd guess will freak out teenage girls (changes in menstruation) wasn't tracked very well. We genuinely don't know beyond "Clearly not drastic enough that it caused significant medical problems" whether this is something that was noticeable a…

One other reason more studies would be useful, is that for the person I know, this happened after the first dose.

That means that at the moment there's just no reasonable way to decide whether it's safe to get a second dose or not. If there were studies that would show that almost nobody has a lasting head pain post vaccination, then one could conclude it's probably just a super weird coincidence, and take a risk with a second dose, to at least get the full protection against covid-19.

Without data the most prudent thing is to do no further harm to oneself, and live with increased risk of infection and all the restrictions and increased costs that are put on unvaccinated.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#873

People don’t want to take the vaccine because others are trying to force them to. They would say “it’s not FDA approved!” not as the core of their hesitancy, but because they were trying to be appeal to pro-vax peoples decision making framework. I don’t think we should be able to require them to. To many of you here: imagine the Trump admin trying to require you to take the vaccine in November of last year. Cities wo…

we don't require anyone to take the vaccine, and we will never require anyone to take the vaccine. What we should and will do is restrict what someone who is not vaccinated can do to limit the harm they will cause to others. No one is going to bang down your door and force a vaccine into your arm, but if you do not want to get vaccinated you will need to change your life because you will be restricted from participat…

That line of thinking gets pretty interesting when you realize that African-Americans are one of the lowest vaccinated groups. Congratulations, you just reintroduced segregation.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#874

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the US, it would be illegal for them to do so under the ACA.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210823033710/https://www.nytim...

That seems to be about making people pay for covid treatment, and unvaccinated people disproportionately requiring treatment.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#875

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Department of Homeland Security saying "opposition to COVID measures" makes someone a "potential terror threat" is about as knee-deep in Orwellian propaganda as you can get. NBC News: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBMCXkjaMxQ&t=778s

Here's what the bulletin actually says "Through the remainder of 2021, racially- or ethnically-motivated violent extremists (RMVEs) and anti-government/anti-authority violent extremists will remain a national threat priority for the United States. These extremists may seek to exploit the emergence of COVID-19 variants by viewing the potential re-establishment of public health restrictions across the United States as…

Okay.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#876
post #822

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you let the opinions of some out group determine your behavior? If you're looking for advice, is there someone you trust with a credentialed medical opinion you can talk to about this instead, like your family physician? Also, do keep in mind the premise here is that if enough of us get vaccinated as fast as possible, we can, among possibly other things, stop the spread of the disease, stop variants from formi…

>Why do you let the opinions of some out group determine your behavior? I'm not sure what you mean? I have no control over how another group chooses to discriminate. >is there someone you trust with a credentialed medical opinion you can talk to about this instead, like your family physician? There's this presumption that people who are making the 'wrong' choice are simply uninformed or haven't sought 'qualified' med…

The behavior of those in the former camp pushes me away from my medically hesitant "wait and see" position, into one of, frankly, staunch dismissal ...

You said you were less likely to get the vaccine because of how people in an out group were behaving. That's what I mean.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#877

All of these comments following the pattern "I'm vaccinated but [insert vaccine hesitancy content here]" sound quite a lot like the "I'm a democrat but [insert pro-trump content]" comments that abounded in the last cycle. I don't know what to make of it. Is this a rhetorical strategy that really works? A tic of people experiencing cognitive dissonance?

They could be like me: a weak person who took it because I was forced, but I still don't agree it's worth the risk for young people (I'd definitely agree for very old people).

What makes you think it isn't worth the risk for young people i.e. what are the risks of the vaccine that you are worried about compared to the risks of covid for a young person?

Based on Israel's vaccine data, we would need to see 2/100k 20-29 year olds or 6/100k 30-39 year olds die or experience side affects worse than severe covid for it to make sense to avoid the vaccine.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#878

People don’t want to take the vaccine because others are trying to force them to. They would say “it’s not FDA approved!” not as the core of their hesitancy, but because they were trying to be appeal to pro-vax peoples decision making framework. I don’t think we should be able to require them to. To many of you here: imagine the Trump admin trying to require you to take the vaccine in November of last year. Cities wo…

> imagine the Trump admin trying to require you to take the vaccine in November of last year. Cities would have burned over it. I don't like "Imagine x doing y" arguments because it makes us insert our own biases on a hypothetical scenario that isn't the current reality.

That's pretty much saying hypothetical situations have no value. Which is false.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#879
post #849
post #739

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3.2 serious outcomes per 100,000 infections. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628...

Hey, cherry picker, how is your business going? > and the rate of serious cases among unvaccinated people in > (3.2 per 100,000)

>the rate of serious cases among unvaccinated people over age 60 (178.7 per 100,000) was nine times more than the rate among fully vaccinated people of the same age category

So .18% for the most at-risk portion of the unvaccinated. This is the latest data on Delta from the most vaccinated country in the world.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#880

A large number of those objecting to the vaccine have serious needle phobia and don't wish to admit this publicly. The most common presentation is mild anxiety, but in more serious instances, a needle phobic person may pass out or be genuinely convinced they are having a cardiac arrest. There are alternative delivery methods being tested, such as by Pharmajet. I suspect that when needle phobia is addressed in a less…

This is a legitimately preposterous take.
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