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Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

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Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#871

I'm just going to come out and say something that I've had a hard self reflective time coming to the conclusion of. I don't believe in free speech without limits. I have strongly felt that the actions taken by these companies is morally and ethically the right thing to do, for any business and that is inconsistent with believing in true free speech. My line for free speech seems to lie in speech that incites violence…

> My line for free speech seems to lie in speech that incites violence

It sounds very easy when you speak in the abstract.

I could tell you a dozen examples where you can argue for both sides, and what your conclusion will be will depend on what the media says and whether or not you like the person they "persecute" and vilify.

AOC said "Are you all ready to make a ruckus? Are you all ready to fight for our rights?". "Oh no, those are fighting words, they incite violence". Would you like ban her from all platforms?

What happens to people without a party? A recent trend on the progressive left was the #ForceTheVote to ask the AOC, squad and the progressive wing of the party to withhold their vote for Nancy Pelosi's speakership in exchange for a vote on M4All (the thing they've run on, "but now is not the time"). Should they all be banned because they want to "force" the vote?

"Hold your representatives feet to the fire"? Do I want to literally do that and burn them alive? Or I want to keep them accountable?

"Heads on pikes"? Do I want to behead them, or I want them to lose their position and I want them to get fired?

What if I get frustrated at a party, and I say "the gloves are off" and decide to run against them? "Oh no, he said 'gloves are off', he wants to be beat up the congressman/congresswoman. Silence him!". What if I say, "I'm going to destroy them". Obviously, I was speaking in the political sense, but if enough people on cable say the opposite, you'll never believe me.

The point is that there are usually hundreds of ways to frame something. If you didn't hear the context, and you only see the 5 seconds soundbite, you'll believe it's justified. You also won't look into it, because "why would you protect an aggressor? the clip was clear, he/she threatened people with violence".

FYI: I brought examples from the left so that people understand that almost every person who has given an energetic speech can be framed as "violent" and in the future can be shut down (if the power dynamics change). I used American examples, as the two-party system is simpler as a multiparty system and most people are familiar with the things that happen in the US. The same would be true in other countries, though.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#872

I'm just going to come out and say something that I've had a hard self reflective time coming to the conclusion of. I don't believe in free speech without limits. I have strongly felt that the actions taken by these companies is morally and ethically the right thing to do, for any business and that is inconsistent with believing in true free speech. My line for free speech seems to lie in speech that incites violence…

Post-war Europe tends to agree with you: there is a good reason why there are limitations on free speech in many Western European countries. Fascism is simply too big of a threat to tolerate.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#874

I'm just going to come out and say something that I've had a hard self reflective time coming to the conclusion of. I don't believe in free speech without limits. I have strongly felt that the actions taken by these companies is morally and ethically the right thing to do, for any business and that is inconsistent with believing in true free speech. My line for free speech seems to lie in speech that incites violence…

Restricting free speech to prevent violence is like trying to keep boiling water in a pot from bubbling over by pressing a lid on it. Will work for a while but speech like the bubbles of boiling water is usually just a symptom of an underlying dynamic. So it won't go away. Worst case scenerio is of course the pot will simply explode at some point.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#875

I'm just going to come out and say something that I've had a hard self reflective time coming to the conclusion of. I don't believe in free speech without limits. I have strongly felt that the actions taken by these companies is morally and ethically the right thing to do, for any business and that is inconsistent with believing in true free speech. My line for free speech seems to lie in speech that incites violence…

A credible immediate threat of violence seems to cross the threshold of free speech, but is no-platforming the remedy? Because it is a pre-emptive meassure, should private companies needs to have power to do so?

I think prohibited speech should be addressed through post-fact punitive measures, not through blanket premptive actions.

Even if someone does say prohibited things, it does not necessarily follow that all that say ought to be prohibited. So no-platforming is morally and ethically problematic.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#876

I'm just going to come out and say something that I've had a hard self reflective time coming to the conclusion of. I don't believe in free speech without limits. I have strongly felt that the actions taken by these companies is morally and ethically the right thing to do, for any business and that is inconsistent with believing in true free speech. My line for free speech seems to lie in speech that incites violence…

The mainstream media was complicit in arguing for the Iraq War, which resulted in the deaths of nearly a million people and is still ongoing in the form of the Syrian Civil War. Are you for shutting down the New York Times, then? The violence they’ve facilitated dwarfs that of the recent events. Edit: in case you doubt me, here’s a pretty damning article: https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/iraq..…

[deleted]

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#877

I'm just going to come out and say something that I've had a hard self reflective time coming to the conclusion of. I don't believe in free speech without limits. I have strongly felt that the actions taken by these companies is morally and ethically the right thing to do, for any business and that is inconsistent with believing in true free speech. My line for free speech seems to lie in speech that incites violence…

I have not yet concluded whether I believe in free speech without limits, but I can at least say with confidence the following: - Freedom of speech is of extremely high importance for any free society and should not be taken for granted - Removing it in any capacity should be done with extreme care and free of any bias one way or another, with a lot of thought put into any future consequences - Speech without a platf…

> Private companies' interest should have little, if any, control over the ability of the public to speak

This ignores that private companies are made up of people, and those people have opinions and moral compasses.

If some large number of your employees don't want to be working on a product that provides a platform for speech they believe is reprehensible, what do you do?

If you ignore them, some of them -- perhaps high value employees -- quit. Others, who maybe don't have great job mobility, stick around, but feel miserable, because their job makes them do unethical things. Not a great outcome.

Is free speech for all more important than refusing to sell to people you believe are doing something unethical with your product?

I honestly don't know the answer to that question. My gut reaction is to celebrate Parler effectively getting kicked off the internet, but I do worry that the long-term consequences of doing things like this will haunt us as a society.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#878

I'm just going to come out and say something that I've had a hard self reflective time coming to the conclusion of. I don't believe in free speech without limits. I have strongly felt that the actions taken by these companies is morally and ethically the right thing to do, for any business and that is inconsistent with believing in true free speech. My line for free speech seems to lie in speech that incites violence…

> My line for free speech seems to lie in speech that incites violence It sounds very easy when you speak in the abstract. I could tell you a dozen examples where you can argue for both sides, and what your conclusion will be will depend on what the media says and whether or not you like the person they "persecute" and vilify. AOC said "Are you all ready to make a ruckus? Are you all ready to fight for our rights?".…

I get what you're trying to do here, but I don't think it really worked. The examples you provided are obviously not incitements to violence. If someone wants to twist those words to get us to believe they are, we can look at the facts on the ground: no one became violent because of those words. (Of course that's not possible when you're judging speech immediately after it's said and don't have hindsight.)

On the flip side, quite a bit of violence did occur on the 6th; the speech that got us there was pretty clearly intended to get us there.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#880

I'm just going to come out and say something that I've had a hard self reflective time coming to the conclusion of. I don't believe in free speech without limits. I have strongly felt that the actions taken by these companies is morally and ethically the right thing to do, for any business and that is inconsistent with believing in true free speech. My line for free speech seems to lie in speech that incites violence…

I have not yet concluded whether I believe in free speech without limits, but I can at least say with confidence the following: - Freedom of speech is of extremely high importance for any free society and should not be taken for granted - Removing it in any capacity should be done with extreme care and free of any bias one way or another, with a lot of thought put into any future consequences - Speech without a platf…

> Speech without a platform isn't speech at all

One can always yell on the street corner, that's your (limited) platform.

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