Live data from Hacker News

YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

newsweek.com

871–880 of 923 posts

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#871
post #792
post #763

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is not a problem that we're going to solve by banning David's content. Ok. How are we going to solve it by guaranteeing that his content proliferates as widely as possible, or even as some have suggested, by having governments force platforms to host it against their will, in the name of absolute free speech? The principle that we can debate the merit of ideas only so long as we never prevent any idea from spre…

> his content proliferates This is the root of the problem. The fact that his content is on YouTube does not imply that it will proliferate. > How are we going to solve it Critical thinking skills are apparently undervalued. This is a problem that is hopefully solvable by education and public debate. Even if not, the situation in which a small part of the population believes in David's ideas seems preferable to me th…

>The fact that his content is on YouTube does not imply that it will proliferate.

That's not what I meant. In a world run under free speech maximalist principles, one in which society is only allowed to debate and criticize ideas like David Icke's, but no platform is allowed to choose not to host them (because that choice amounts to censorship,) those ideas would proliferate because mere criticism and debate are not sufficient to prevent their spread.

If it were, there would be no anti-vaxxers or flat earthers, or people who buy into most conspiracy theories, because those people are aware of the arguments to the contrary of their point of view, and they choose to dismiss those arguments. They don't respond to criticism with sober introspection and logic, they respond with ridicule and sometimes violence.

>Even if not, the situation in which a small part of the population believes in David's ideas seems preferable to me than one in which a small group of (non democratically chosen) people decide what is acceptable content and what is not.

Except Youtube isn't deciding what is acceptable for society, they are deciding what is acceptable for themselves. David Icke's delusional followers are free to continue to be deluded, but he is no longer allowed to host content on their platform.

>I agree, but censoring someone goes much farther than to disabuse. Too far, in my opinion.

I disagree that David Icke's been censored. He doesn't have a right to a Youtube account, any more than he has the right to break into my house and start ranting about lizard men. Youtube isn't public property just because it's on the internet.

The problem is that it's impossible for the marketplace of ideas to reject anything without it being interpreted as censorship. That's a slippery slope no one wants to recognize.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#872

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not currently used as the primary means of news by any segment of the population This is wrong. I'm ~19 in the UK. My entire demographic gets their news from either Google, YouTube, Facebook and word-of-mouth, younger people even more so.

I don't doubt that people that are 19 hear things through the rumor mill. That is how the 5g rumor spread and why the UK has so many destroyed 5g towers right now. But there is a difference between the gossip spread through social networks, and news. Also, to note--Google doesn't generate its own news. It sources it to news organizations...Similarly, YouTube News coverage are just segments of news broadcasts by news…

Google News for sure, but non-mainstream YouTube sources (so called independent creators) are collectively more popular than BBC or newspapers. Again, at least in my age group.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#873

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not currently used as the primary means of news by any segment of the population This is wrong. I'm ~19 in the UK. My entire demographic gets their news from either Google, YouTube, Facebook and word-of-mouth, younger people even more so.

I agree, OP is just out of touch with current realities. Sorry but I will side with the the notion that Youtube IS a public utility. The free market allowed these monsters to grow (Facebook, Twitter, Google, etc) and become extremely powerful. They cannot now to claim "they are just another private company" when people are totally marginalized from public discourse if they dont play along. The other thing is the part…

Unfortunately this is a very unpopular opinion nowadays.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#874
post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now in France one doctor (professor Didier Raoult) has been mostly right about the whole thing (in my view), and he became popular thanks to YouTube. Yet his views are in radical opposition to both the French government and the WHO. Should his videos be removed? He's one of the most published expert on infectious diseases, so who in YouTube has authority to decide that he is more wrong than the minister of heal…

> (professor Didier Raoult) has been mostly right about the whole thing Can you cite some sources? Everything I've seen about him has pointed out how bad his study was, how he has a track record of just plain making stuff up, etc. Here's a good example (with extra links) that pretty much demolishes his claims: https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/03/29/mo...

The main source would be the website of his own research center https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/en/ (but it's mostly the content in French that's interesting) He had a lengthy interview on French media last week. As far as I'm concerned he got pretty much every part of that epidemic right from the beginning and the facts are now vindicating him.

But that's not really the point anyway. My point is: he went against the WHO and the French government. And at least some people, like me, find value in what he is saying. So who is to judge whether or not he should be allowed to spread his ideas?

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#875
post #828

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes YouTube may well be profitable as it is run now, but it may not be profitable if it was run as a utility.

It shouldn't be run as a utility then. The web is open; another video site can be established by anyone. YouTube proves the model can be profitable. I'm not sure I'd treat YouTube's "monopoly" on internet video the same way as actual utilities have physical monopolies on their industries.

Internet video appears to be a natural monopoly given no one can even close to competing against Google.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#876

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My actual answer is in the last line, but I'll ramble a bit first. You make an interesting point, but I think there are times in which we can prohibit certain types of posts and comments that might technically be censorship (using the definition of suppression or prohibition of things that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security), but they aren't bad censorship. I would place some so…

I find troubling that everyone in an argument pro freedom of speech and first amendment always says it is OK for YouTube to censor "illegal" content, but isn't making content illegal the definition of government censorship? It is a weird argument to come from the free speech proponents.

I think for argument's sake it's not really about what the government decides is illegal or not, it's that there are some areas of "illegal" that YouTube ignores, while choosing to punish (through demonetization or sometimes deleting accounts) other perfectly legal areas. It's not strictly a free speech argument (at least for me), but the inconsistency deserves to be highlighted.

Consider that snuff films are illegal regardless of their method of distribution- nobody is complaining that YouTube (and every other law-abiding distribution method) censors snuff films and nobody is crying about the First Amendment in this case. Nobody complains because there is a clear legal requirement to prohibit this content, superseding any free speech considerations.

Consider a gray area- filming an activity that might be illegal depending on your location or age, such as smoking marijuana. At a federal level in the USA and in a lot of other countries this is illegal, but it's okay in some areas. YouTube is pretty lax about demonetizing or taking down videos about marijuana. Joe Rogan regularly smokes and promotes weed with guests on his podcast, but there is very little pressure on YouTube to do anything about him.

Consider another scenario for comparison- simply talking about guns on your channel. Following Sandy Hook, YouTube started to demonetize channels that just talked about guns but clearly stayed within the legal bounds and did not promote unsafe or illegal behavior, and some channels have been deleted. YouTube is bowing to outside pressure without any legal requirement. And there is a clear discrepancy in who demonetization gets applied to- promoters of gun control get off scot free, but people that promote legal and responsible gun ownership get demonitized.

YouTube arbitrarily deciding to do something about discussing legally owned guns but nothing about promoting a federally illegal drug is not really the hill I want to die on, but I think it illustrates the inconsistency that frustrates some people. A principled and fair censorship policy should definitely allow the gun conversation to happen if you're going to allow the marijuana conversation to happen, and I think the best way to call this out (without writing the several paragraphs above) is to talk about censoring "illegal" content.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#877
post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't believe in fighting "bad ideas" by suppressing them, I believe in shining a light on them. Let the truth fight for itself. I mean, this is testable. Look at websites where "bad ideas" aren't suppressed, and instead anyone can chime in with their reasoned or unreasoned opinion and duke it out without any real-life consequences. ...and you end up with 8chan, the site where people discuss the best ways to murde…

Related: Gresham's law as a mental model - Bad drive out good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law

That is related to currency and none of its backing arguments have any applicability to speech. Using it in this matter is highly misleading, and could be cited as a form of misinformation.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#878
The question I am not seeing addressed in the many, many comments below is: why is there such a large pool of people willing to believe, and act on, ideas like "5G causes COVID-19 symptoms", "vaccines are harmful", anything by Alex Jones, etc?

It is because people are afraid, and because there is a breakdown of trust in Authorities and Experts to tell the truth and keep people safe. Governments and intelligence agencies lied about Iraq and beyond. Large corporations were the only ones saved in 2008. There is a reproducibility crisis in science, which it pays lip service, and lip service only, to solving. Newspapers have become partisan, ad-driven shills. Corporations buy politicians, and together they invent truths as needed to further the bottom line.

This is the context in which people are increasingly skeptical of Authorities. "5G causes coronavirus", I think, like flat-earth belief, is less an actual belief a person could actually have, than an almost symbolic statement of distrust in Experts. The specific belief is completely unfounded, but the feeling behind it is not.

In this context, I fail to see how corporate censorship could possibly be the answer. At the very best, it is a band-aid. The necessary solution is for our institutions to regain their credibility. The first in many steps will be for them to show some humility and acknowledge that they have failed us badly. Until that credibility is re-established, they need to use a softer touch, rather than doubling down on the obviously false idea that their words are the Infallible Truth.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#879

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but I think trying to map out indirect violence gets into very dangerous territory. So, that's why I draw the line at "directly" advocating violence. Of course, the lines as always get blurry. To use a random example that comes to mind, when Kathy Griffin posted the severed head of Trump - was that a direct call to violence? That's a tough one to answer. My first intuition is that it does cross the line, but I c…

> not removing ANY speech. That causes genocides to happen though -- are you okay with that or did you not know

No, people with guns and uniforms cause genocide. People with pens and typewriters have never harmed a hair on anyone's head.

To disagree is to argue that human beings are nothing but programmable devices. If that's your position, fine, but we'll have to disagree.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#880

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you don't believe that people ought to have the right to sue when injured? Also, calling stuff "FUD" is a classic strategy to escape responsibility. For example, the tobacco industry claimed that lung cancer risk was FUD for decades. Other examples include groundwater pollution, asbestos, and lead paint. Not to mention human overpopulation. Which is arguably the root cause of the COVID-19 pandemic. Along with HIV…

I would absolutely agree that those who are harmed need adequate remedies under the law. I also know that vaccines provide an immense public benefit. If the specifics of the tort system were causing companies to exit the vaccine business (and they were) , that's certainly something the government ought to step in to fix. However, that doesn't mean there were "issues with safety" as you claim. The implications in your…

If you read the background for that law, you'll find that people were in fact being injured by vaccines. And some still are. Just as virtually all medicines injure some people. Because there's great variability in responses.

The law didn't get enacted just to prevent lawsuits, but also to compensate those who were injured.

> The implications in your comment are actively harmful to the public health.

That way lies totalitarianism.

For example, there's considerable pressure in many countries to outlaw secure end-to-end encryption. To protect against terrorists, child abusers, and other criminals.

So how would we feel if support for secure end-to-end encryption were censored in social media?

Post reply on HN