The San Francisco Bay Area shelter-in-place order is being extended through May • Hacker News Board

Re: The San Francisco Bay Area shelter-in-place order is being extended through May

#871

Post by JoeAltmaier » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 10:21 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #867

rtkwe wrote: post #862

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it’s intentionally made into a diffuse set of states but there’s far more than just those two issues where federal power makes sense, environmental regulation in particular since air and water pollution don’t stop at state lines. But we’re getting off on a tangent about the fundamental design of the US government made at a very different point in history. I don’t think either of us can convince the other here…

ok, but supply of PPE and ventilators to medical workers mainly concerns treatment rather than transmission. stay-at-home and physical distancing primarily concern transmission. we want to control transmission to reduce death and suffering, not eliminate them. even with dystopian and draconian measures (not to mention economy-destroying), reducing death and suffering to zero is effectively impossible (and seasonal re…

Its all about the level of risk, which many of us are not so confidently dismissing. Everything follows from that. To assume its 'probably going to be ok' is potentially callously condemning a million people to die needlessly. All for lack of patience.

Re: The San Francisco Bay Area shelter-in-place order is being extended through May

#872

Post by greedo » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 10:22 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #387

cs702 wrote: post #71

If many people get very sick simultaneously, they would not only overwhelm hospitals, they would also inflict a disorderly, involuntary shutdown of large swaths of the economy, driven by fear -- instead of the orderly, voluntary shutdown we have at present, driven by government mandate. We all want to avoid that .

There seem to be lots of people that think actual chaos is the only sufficient justification for a shutdown. No averting anything, let it get bad and mop up afterwords.

It's the same crowd decrying property taxes with "I don't have any kids, why should I pay for schools?"

Re: The San Francisco Bay Area shelter-in-place order is being extended through May

#873

Post by greedo » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 10:27 PM UTC

9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #569

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland actually started reopening with haircuts and manicures. Certainly pressure from groups representing hairdressers was a big part of it, but the justification they use is that contact tracing can be done reliably in such a situation. Keep in mind that they also want to reopen schools, citing dubious claims about children not contributing much to the spread, staying silent about the likely true motivation (s…

The science on children not being significant vectors of COVID (and, by extension, school closures not being very effective) is actually reasonably well established: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/apr/06/school-clo...

That's not quite accurate, according to the article:

"“While school closure as a measure on its own is predicted to have a limited effectiveness in controlling Covid-19 transmission, when combined with intense social distancing it plays an important role in severing remaining contacts between households and thus ensuring transmission declines.”"

Re: The San Francisco Bay Area shelter-in-place order is being extended through May

#874

Post by dllthomas » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 10:28 PM UTC

sanderjd wrote: post #856

dllthomas wrote: post #833

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was speaking just to the argument made by dragonwriter that, because something is banned, the possibility has no impact. If you think this was motivated by an ideological objection to government assistance... well, you're mistaken, because I don't have one of those. I can't speak to anything up-thread.

Ok you're right, maybe I have two points: I think this distraction is driven by ideology and partly maintained by (or taking advantage of) pedantry. It is far too tempting for logically-minded pedants to say "but you can clearly see what the numbers show", which is true, but is not a useful point except as further fuel for the distraction. The real problem we're going to have is people struggling to find jobs as dema…

Calling out significant flaws is not pedantry. Defending arguments because they are "on your side", irrespective of merit, is destructive to the kind of reasoned discussion I value on this site (certainly it's not always available, but let's aim for more of it, yeah?). And I actually think that repeating obviously flawed arguments does the other side's work, turning away the undecided - especially on a site like this.

Re: The San Francisco Bay Area shelter-in-place order is being extended through May

#875

Post by sanderjd » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 11:00 PM UTC

dllthomas wrote: post #874

sanderjd wrote: post #856

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok you're right, maybe I have two points: I think this distraction is driven by ideology and partly maintained by (or taking advantage of) pedantry. It is far too tempting for logically-minded pedants to say "but you can clearly see what the numbers show", which is true, but is not a useful point except as further fuel for the distraction. The real problem we're going to have is people struggling to find jobs as dema…

Calling out significant flaws is not pedantry. Defending arguments because they are "on your side", irrespective of merit, is destructive to the kind of reasoned discussion I value on this site (certainly it's not always available, but let's aim for more of it, yeah?). And I actually think that repeating obviously flawed arguments does the other side's work, turning away the undecided - especially on a site like this…

For some topics that are intended purely as distractions, the whole goal is just to get people talking about it. So mission accomplished.

Re: The San Francisco Bay Area shelter-in-place order is being extended through May

#876

Post by in_cahoots » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 11:03 PM UTC

thelean12 wrote: post #844

in_cahoots wrote: post #789

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My source for this is my own life. My town (San Mateo county) is still bringing in construction workers to build a playground. My pediatrician and dentist have both closed for non-emergency purposes, as has my physical therapist. And you didn’t even address my point about liquor stores - read the order from San Mateo county and see if you think their rationale makes sense. I’m not sure why you think I’m arguing in ba…

The original thing I was pushing against was your "What is so magical about the word essential?" comment. I've been showing how, with limited exceptions, it's not just a magic word attached to activities. I didn't think you were arguing in good faith because you brought up horrible counter examples (gardeners??) and started spewing conspiracy theories that the bay area has some nefarious reason to keep people from be…

You don’t seem to be reading my posts carefully, so let me spell it out for you. My point is that essential is seemingly arbitrary. Constructing a playground is essential but gardening isn’t. I can drink away my pain or het high but I can’t get physical therapy.

It doesn’t take a conspiracy theory to understand what’s going on. Essential has been defined narrowly enough to keep the public inconvenienced so that they stay vigilant. If you disagree with me on this go read the New Yorker article on Seattle’s response. Optics plays as large a part as science when it comes to public health.

Essential is also defined broadly enough so that big businesses and their lobbyists don’t complain. That’s capitalism, you can disagree if you want.

Not every argument has to resort to name-calling and accusations of being fake. Even on the internet.

Re: The San Francisco Bay Area shelter-in-place order is being extended through May

#877

Post by thelean12 » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 11:20 PM UTC

in_cahoots wrote: post #876

thelean12 wrote: post #844

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original thing I was pushing against was your "What is so magical about the word essential?" comment. I've been showing how, with limited exceptions, it's not just a magic word attached to activities. I didn't think you were arguing in good faith because you brought up horrible counter examples (gardeners??) and started spewing conspiracy theories that the bay area has some nefarious reason to keep people from be…

You don’t seem to be reading my posts carefully, so let me spell it out for you. My point is that essential is seemingly arbitrary. Constructing a playground is essential but gardening isn’t. I can drink away my pain or het high but I can’t get physical therapy. It doesn’t take a conspiracy theory to understand what’s going on. Essential has been defined narrowly enough to keep the public inconvenienced so that they…

And my point is that it's mostly not arbitrary, with a few exceptions that should absolutely be called out. And you are right to do so.

My problem with your arguments is that instead of complaining to your public officials that non-essential construction is happening (the park), you assume there's some conspiracy going on. Big Park lobbying? I don't know what you think, and I'm not going to bother writing out all the reasons it's ridiculous.

Re: The San Francisco Bay Area shelter-in-place order is being extended through May

#878

Post by dllthomas » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 11:57 PM UTC

sanderjd wrote: post #875

dllthomas wrote: post #874

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling out significant flaws is not pedantry. Defending arguments because they are "on your side", irrespective of merit, is destructive to the kind of reasoned discussion I value on this site (certainly it's not always available, but let's aim for more of it, yeah?). And I actually think that repeating obviously flawed arguments does the other side's work, turning away the undecided - especially on a site like this…

For some topics that are intended purely as distractions, the whole goal is just to get people talking about it. So mission accomplished.

Cura te ipsum, but if that's your remaining issue I won't distract further.

Re: The San Francisco Bay Area shelter-in-place order is being extended through May

#879

Post by throwlaplace » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 12:27 AM UTC

ravenstine wrote: post #508

throwlaplace wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The problem I see with that statement is that it's difficult, if not impossible to falsify. All you have to do is take a look at hospitals in NYC to know how wrong you are and right the person you responded to is. >Someone in my neighborhood spent their life savings on starting a gourmet burgers and brews joint Holy shit won't someone please think of the gastropubs. This is why I'll never believe this is a good fait…

Would you speak like this to me in real life?

of course i would. would you like to setup a call so i can tell you to your face in real life how absolutely morally repugnant and completely facile your ideas are?

Re: The San Francisco Bay Area shelter-in-place order is being extended through May

#880

Post by in_cahoots » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 12:29 AM UTC

thelean12 wrote: post #877

in_cahoots wrote: post #876

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t seem to be reading my posts carefully, so let me spell it out for you. My point is that essential is seemingly arbitrary. Constructing a playground is essential but gardening isn’t. I can drink away my pain or het high but I can’t get physical therapy. It doesn’t take a conspiracy theory to understand what’s going on. Essential has been defined narrowly enough to keep the public inconvenienced so that they…

And my point is that it's mostly not arbitrary, with a few exceptions that should absolutely be called out. And you are right to do so. My problem with your arguments is that instead of complaining to your public officials that non-essential construction is happening (the park), you assume there's some conspiracy going on. Big Park lobbying? I don't know what you think, and I'm not going to bother writing out all the…

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. A reasonable person can read my posts with some nuance, but you seem determined to take the most absurd interpretation of my words while simultaneously putting words into my mouth. It’s not worth the effort to argue with someone like you.