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We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

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Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#871

Post by ehsankia »

midasz wrote: post #818
ehsankia wrote: post #760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we object to technologies that aid the powerful in oppressing the vulnerable, wherever they may be. And where's the actual research showing that Google in China would do such a thing? By all calculations, it would bring more knowledge and access to Chinese citizen that they already have. This make it sound like Google is the reason why the citizen don't have access to information.

By building and delivering such a system they'd be condoning the actions of the Chinese government.

No? You're projecting your western values. They're not condoning anything, they are following local laws. And while Search will be crippled, they are still bringing dozens of other great and useful service to Chinese citizens. Almost any actual Chinese citizen I've spoken to would absolutely love to have Google back. Instead, Westerns are just outraged in their place and are trying to virtue signal.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#872

Post by ardy42 »

bduerst wrote: post #855
ardy42 wrote: post #786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Saying they spurned Google...the majority of the substitute employers are already in China. There is life outside of the FAANG/GAFAM bubble. If you refuse to work at Google, it doesn't mean that you're then obligated to work at Amazon or Microsoft, etc.

Of course there is, but when considering substitute employers, in the economic sense, working in a small-town software shop isn't quite the same as working at a multinational tech company. If we're looking at it in that lens, then GP's problem isn't with Google, but with large tech companies in general because that's the industry standard.

> Of course there is, but when considering substitute employers, in the economic sense, working in a small-town software shop isn't quite the same as working at a multinational tech company.

The life outside of the FAANG/GAFAM bubble isn't just "small-town software shop[s]." There's a lot more diversity than that, and to conceive of the industry in that way is too parochial.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#873

Post by AnthonyMouse »

tomlock wrote: post #823
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #804

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the one hand it sounds like you're saying that software engineers are paid enough already, then on the other hand you're saying you think the compensation given to the software engineers that founded the company - which is much MUCH higher than that of the average company engineer is appropriate. Of course, because the level of risk is different. $100,000 guaranteed is worth more than a > Could you let me know e…

I'm assuming that you don't think risking making no money is enough to entitle a founder to their entire employees wage. How much does it entitle them to?

> I'm assuming that you don't think risking making no money is enough to entitle a founder to their entire employees wage. How much does it entitle them to?

The amount they mutually agree upon. The employee wouldn't agree to work indefinitely for no pay.

The high compensation of successful founders is actually one of the things keeping salaries up, because any of the salaried employees has the option to quit and found their own company. The existing company has to pay well enough to compete with that -- because if what they're paying wasn't actually competitive with that alternative given the relative risk between them, why would anybody accept the salary?

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#874

Post by AnthonyMouse »

ineedasername wrote: post #870
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you get and pay for the infrastructure of this direct democracy without resources paid for by dues? The technology needed to let people submit proposals and let other people vote on them is on the level what individuals do over a weekend as adjunct to a side project. > How do you get the minority in any vote to go along with the result when there isn't any common binding agreement such as a contract that enf…

The technology to submit and receive votes on proposals is only trivial until you think about the details, especially those required for security and authentication. And your picture of humam behavior is all too rose-colored glasses if it's having all members of a minority vote just go along out of solidarity when it's non-binding. I've seen unions vote on issues, and it's often contentious with emotions running high…

> The technology to submit and receive votes on proposals is only trivial until you think about the details, especially those required for security and authentication.

This is a major problem for country-level populations. For corporations it typically comes pre-solved by the corporation itself, because each employee would have a company email address or Active Directory account etc. that could be used for authentication. (In theory the corporation could illegally tamper with the results that way, but the tampering would be immediately obvious to the person whose vote was changed.)

> If the losing side in any of those could have just said "nope" to accepting the result, they would have.

Because they're using the union for the wrong stuff. A lot of the votes would be for things like accepting a policy that gives raises to only senior people. No doubt the junior people being screwed over by that policy would strenuously object when they're the 49%, especially when being in the union deprives them of the opportunity to negotiate something else as an individual.

But how many Google employees have that kind of personal stake in a question like whether to censor search results in China?

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#875

Post by tomlock »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #873
tomlock wrote: post #823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm assuming that you don't think risking making no money is enough to entitle a founder to their entire employees wage. How much does it entitle them to?

> I'm assuming that you don't think risking making no money is enough to entitle a founder to their entire employees wage. How much does it entitle them to? The amount they mutually agree upon. The employee wouldn't agree to work indefinitely for no pay. The high compensation of successful founders is actually one of the things keeping salaries up , because any of the salaried employees has the option to quit and fou…

That'd be all very reasonable if we lived in a world where Apple and Google weren't colluding to keep wages down.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#877

Post by ionised »

partiallypro wrote: post #868
ionised wrote: post #847

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there are many many many citizens in Afghanistan that long to have the US back with a significant presence Which would be true of any military force that invaded, slaughtered hundreds of thousands and then pulled out leaving a power vacuum. The US didn't go into Afghanistan to save people from car bombs. If the US has somehow done you a favour as a result of its wars of aggression, it's a complete coincidence. > It…

The US went in because it facilitated terrorism and led to the direct death of 3000 Americans. The rise of religious extremism was well before the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan. Am I for US intervention as "world police," absolutely not. I don't agree with our presence in Iraq, but there is certainly a point where US presence is warranted and needed. Anything else is just a naive world view. I was like that when I was…

None of this address the original point I was making, in that US wars in the last few decades have not made Americans safer. Or anyone else for that matter.

The fact that people might now be clamouring to have them back after they left a power vaccuum to act as blocker on warlords and religious zealots fighting for control doesn't change that fact.

> nything else is just a naive world view. I was like that when I was in my early 20s, then I grew up and realized how complex the world really is.

Implying that I'm immature because I disagree with you doesn't make you look as good as you think.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#878

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

_Tev wrote: post #858
crispinb wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western Europe, NZ, Australia, Canada. The US has always been an outlier amongst the rich nations: more religious, more violent, etc. None of the attitudes referred to by the parent would be 'hyper-' anything in most of these nations.

Social liberalism California edition is quite extreme even for (Western) Europe.

As a Western European, it really isn't.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#879

Post by AnthonyMouse »

tomlock wrote: post #875
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #873

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm assuming that you don't think risking making no money is enough to entitle a founder to their entire employees wage. How much does it entitle them to? The amount they mutually agree upon. The employee wouldn't agree to work indefinitely for no pay. The high compensation of successful founders is actually one of the things keeping salaries up , because any of the salaried employees has the option to quit and fou…

That'd be all very reasonable if we lived in a world where Apple and Google weren't colluding to keep wages down.

Which is why there are laws against that, which are actively being enforced against them.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#880

Post by tomlock »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #879
tomlock wrote: post #875

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That'd be all very reasonable if we lived in a world where Apple and Google weren't colluding to keep wages down.

Which is why there are laws against that, which are actively being enforced against them.

So you both think people are being paid reasonably and that Google and Apple are colluding with one another.
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