Why We Terminated Daily Stormer • Hacker News Board

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#871

Post by ufmace » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 1:21 PM UTC

willvarfar wrote: post #659

chvid wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have any sympathy for the Daily Stormer. I just don't see where this is stopping. What else needs to be taken down? /pol/? Who about Breitbart? Or maybe some 2nd WW Nazi propaganda? Or something from the US civil war? You guys seem to be ok with this very slippery slope being assessed by random private companies accountable to who knows. And then you have the nerve to call us who believes that limits of free…

CloudFare served DailyStormer for years. Then DailyStormer says CloudFare are secretly nazis. Then CloudFare say "no we don't, goodbye". If DailyStormer hadn't been so stupid, and had never claimed CloudFare was anything other than neutral, then they would still be served? Stupid own goal DailyStormer. The censorship and 'line' seems to be not what you say or incite against others, but what you say about CloudFare.

> Then DailyStormer says CloudFare are secretly nazis.

According to CloudFare... Can't seem to find exactly where they say this. Their platforms on which to say things seem to be dropping like flies here.

Not saying they didn't claim that, but that's one of the problems with taking away someone's speech entirely - your only "source" for knowing what they have actually said is the claims of the people who just shut them down.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#872

Post by BonesJustice » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 1:23 PM UTC

Asdfbla wrote: post #817

chvid wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have any sympathy for the Daily Stormer. I just don't see where this is stopping. What else needs to be taken down? /pol/? Who about Breitbart? Or maybe some 2nd WW Nazi propaganda? Or something from the US civil war? You guys seem to be ok with this very slippery slope being assessed by random private companies accountable to who knows. And then you have the nerve to call us who believes that limits of free…

Many European countries (like Germany etc.) have operated with free speech restrictions since the end of WW2 and the slippery slope that is always brought up never materialized. Slippery slope arguments are only valid if you believe that your jurisdiction doesn't have proper rule of law. Otherwise experience, at least in European countries, showed that courts are very well capable of recognizing the importance of fre…

> slippery slope that is always brought up never materialized

The targets of the 234,341 criminal insult investigations conducted by German police last year[1] might argue otherwise. A few thousand of those were elementary school kids. Sixteen were preschoolers.

> courts are very well capable of recognizing the importance of free speech even for tasteless and hateful speech

Bless your heart. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that your personal experience is untainted by exposure to actual courts. Prosecutors in the United States are not exactly known for rigorous exercise of discretion, and defending yourself in court can be ruinously expensive even if you prevail.

---

[1] https://www.bka.de/DE/AktuelleInformationen/StatistikenLageb...

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#873

Post by pavlov » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 1:24 PM UTC

losvedir wrote: post #855

Akujin wrote: post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

> The idea that I'm seeing any of these comments arguing to the contrary means HN is already infiltrated by /pol/ and other Nazi sympathizing groups. This is an extremely frightening statement to me. I'm terrified by the fact that you'd paint me as a Nazi sympathizer because my meta-level beliefs that text and speech should be protected are stronger than my object-level beliefs that Nazi philosophy is evil. The Nazis…

I'm okay with neonazis saying disgusting things, as long as they play by the rules and don't commit any violence. (Hell, people brought AK-47's and AR-15's to Charlottesville but didn't use them, despite the violent clashes.)

So intimidation and threats of violence are ok? Are you really commending these people for their restraint in not using AK-47s at a demonstration?

One of the lessons from the first round of Nazis is that, by the time the threatening talk turns to actual large-scale violence, it's too late. When Hitler got out of prison in 1924, he made sure that he would be seen as an "all talk" kind of guy by those who could have shut him down.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#874

Post by DarkKomunalec » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 1:24 PM UTC

cbuq wrote: post #864

losvedir wrote: post #855

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that I'm seeing any of these comments arguing to the contrary means HN is already infiltrated by /pol/ and other Nazi sympathizing groups. This is an extremely frightening statement to me. I'm terrified by the fact that you'd paint me as a Nazi sympathizer because my meta-level beliefs that text and speech should be protected are stronger than my object-level beliefs that Nazi philosophy is evil. The Nazis…

If you are referring to "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never break me", clearly you have other problems with sympathy and empathy. Free speech does not protect dangerous speech.

"Free speech does not protect dangerous speech."

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#875

Post by autotypo » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 1:25 PM UTC

CaptainZapp wrote: post #776

willvarfar wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CloudFare served DailyStormer for years. Then DailyStormer says CloudFare are secretly nazis. Then CloudFare say "no we don't, goodbye". If DailyStormer hadn't been so stupid, and had never claimed CloudFare was anything other than neutral, then they would still be served? Stupid own goal DailyStormer. The censorship and 'line' seems to be not what you say or incite against others, but what you say about CloudFare.

The censorship and 'line' seems to be not what you say or incite against others, but what you say about CloudFare Well, sure. But if you shit on my living room carpet I'll also show you the door. As I think is my right.

He peed on my rug!

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#876

Post by pyroinferno » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 1:26 PM UTC

bloobloobloo wrote: post #833

Asdfbla wrote: post #817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many European countries (like Germany etc.) have operated with free speech restrictions since the end of WW2 and the slippery slope that is always brought up never materialized. Slippery slope arguments are only valid if you believe that your jurisdiction doesn't have proper rule of law. Otherwise experience, at least in European countries, showed that courts are very well capable of recognizing the importance of fre…

> the slippery slope that is always brought up never materialized. Very true. Well, except maybe for that one time when Germany became an open-air rape camp under the noses of police who did nothing for fear of being accused of racism. That kind of sucked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaul... And, oh yeah, there was that time they threw a lawyer in jail for defending a Holocaust denier. htt…

Germany is a joke. The fact that it's even considered a country and not a US territory is beyond me.

If you have a US military base in your country you are objectively not a sovereign nation.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#877

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 1:27 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#878

Post by FuriouslyAdrift » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 1:30 PM UTC

cbuq wrote: post #864

losvedir wrote: post #855

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that I'm seeing any of these comments arguing to the contrary means HN is already infiltrated by /pol/ and other Nazi sympathizing groups. This is an extremely frightening statement to me. I'm terrified by the fact that you'd paint me as a Nazi sympathizer because my meta-level beliefs that text and speech should be protected are stronger than my object-level beliefs that Nazi philosophy is evil. The Nazis…

If you are referring to "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never break me", clearly you have other problems with sympathy and empathy. Free speech does not protect dangerous speech.

Yes, it does. Explicitly and confirmed by several Supreme Court cases.

Here's a quick and current take on the issue from Eugene Volokh: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201...

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#879

Post by vpeters25 » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 1:30 PM UTC

willvarfar wrote: post #659

chvid wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have any sympathy for the Daily Stormer. I just don't see where this is stopping. What else needs to be taken down? /pol/? Who about Breitbart? Or maybe some 2nd WW Nazi propaganda? Or something from the US civil war? You guys seem to be ok with this very slippery slope being assessed by random private companies accountable to who knows. And then you have the nerve to call us who believes that limits of free…

CloudFare served DailyStormer for years. Then DailyStormer says CloudFare are secretly nazis. Then CloudFare say "no we don't, goodbye". If DailyStormer hadn't been so stupid, and had never claimed CloudFare was anything other than neutral, then they would still be served? Stupid own goal DailyStormer. The censorship and 'line' seems to be not what you say or incite against others, but what you say about CloudFare.

Think of this scenario:

Oppresive government wants cloudflare to stop hosting some dissenters site.

Cloudflare says no

Then such government tries again, this time accusing dissenters of terrorism or something else despicable such as child molestation or hate speech.

Cloudflare still refuses

Then someone in such government impersonates the dissenters and claims cloudflare is on their side.

Cloudflare immediately kicks dissenters out of their network.

Free speech is hard.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#880

Post by BearGoesChirp » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 1:30 PM UTC

chvid wrote: post #599

matttproud wrote: post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

^^^ The parent comment hits the ball out of the park. The commentary on past posts on HN and elsewhere floors me. It seems one or two things are prevalent: 1. Folks will gladly loan the hangman the rope that he will use to hang you, your family, and your neighbors — all because of "purity of belief" in free speech. Sorry, hate to break it to you, but these illiberal forces are a clear and present danger to this comfo…

I don't have any sympathy for the Daily Stormer. I just don't see where this is stopping. What else needs to be taken down? /pol/? Who about Breitbart? Or maybe some 2nd WW Nazi propaganda? Or something from the US civil war? You guys seem to be ok with this very slippery slope being assessed by random private companies accountable to who knows. And then you have the nerve to call us who believes that limits of free…

>What else needs to be taken down?

It would be interesting to see how much of this applies to sub sects of Islam, namely the sub sects that promote violence or which promote child marriage.

My big issue here isn't the logic itself, but the selective application of it. For a similar related topic, whose statues should we have up? What is the objective criteria by which we should decide if a statue is allowed (on public property/at a memorial) and will it be applied to all statues?