Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's a huge difference in how much intrinsic athletic ability matters depending on the sport. It's a bigger factor in a sport like baseball or tennis where eyesight and coordination are so critical; you can only train those things to a limited extent. But for sports that rely more on strength and endurance than technical skill pretty much anyone has the potential to reach a high level of performance (not Olympic l…
Don't kid yourself. I can tell who is and isn't a good athlete from 50 yards away just by how they walk. Hard work matters, but its more about eliminating those with talent rather than allowing those without talent to compete favorably. Also, its a self reinforcing cycle. You have talent, you win, winning is fun, you work harder to win more, goto step 2. PS The cutoff from HS to college sports is about as extreme as…
Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM
861–870 of 925 posts
Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM
#862Earlier quoted context omitted.
And motivation was often impeded by either trauma or not finding a way to make it relevant to the student. Those are prereqs for learning anything. The common denominator for people that are good at something is that they liked it, so they did it more.
I know plenty of people that went through an engineering degree with me that do not like math, but they are competent at all the way up to what an electrical engineer needs to know, which is not research level math, but what most people would call advanced. I would never say I "like" math for example but I've always thought about it as something important to learn and get decent at to succeed in life. I have way more…
Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM
#863Earlier quoted context omitted.
I know plenty of people that went through an engineering degree with me that do not like math, but they are competent at all the way up to what an electrical engineer needs to know, which is not research level math, but what most people would call advanced. I would never say I "like" math for example but I've always thought about it as something important to learn and get decent at to succeed in life. I have way more…
You also don't know the people who didn't make it through, because for whatever reason they aren't able to learn something they weren't able to like. Glad you were able to make it work.
Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM
#864This doesn't surprise me at all. From what I can tell, California's education system has moved from "equality" (which I would define as providing similar opportunities to all the kids) to focusing on "equity" (which I think they define as dictating the same outcome for all kids). To get an idea of how off the rails this has gotten, go read up on their statements trying to justify banning high school calculus. They ex…
Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM
#865Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the problems are deeper. The problems are at school level. The variance in the level of schooling in US is huge compared to Italy in my experience. This factor means that school exams are not a good indicator of competitiveness. Furthermore, the social systems in Italy mean that the failure is not that problematic especially for kids from poor backgrounds. And therefore, risk of depression etc was much lower.…
> The problems are at school level. Imho the problems are even deeper: they’re at culture level. But that’s where things get controversial, so i’ll hint at the problems and stop here.
Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM
#866Earlier quoted context omitted.
For those who downvoted without comment: how did I say anything disagreeable, untrue, or otherwise meriting a downvote?
I downvoted you because you're very obviously one of these "disabled" zoomers who's arguing for the whole concept without bringing any actual arguments.
It seems that multiple people read:
> It's exactly because of the politics both that the students feel empowered to make those claims, and that the culture suppressing that questioning exists.
and somehow concluded that I am somehow legitimizing "those claims". I am genuinely unable to understand that.
Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM
#867Earlier quoted context omitted.
For those who downvoted without comment: how did I say anything disagreeable, untrue, or otherwise meriting a downvote?
Challenging someone else's lived experience without providing any justification or alternative explanations, would be my guess.
Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM
#868Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sorry, but I’m calling absolute bullshit. Blackboards are fine for teaching maths according to mathematicians. For students, just look at stuff like 3blue1brown and summer of math and how many people finally get it because of animations and playing with the maths instead of some old dude drawing a formula on a blackboard. This is like the pi vs tau debate. I seriously do not understand why maths teachers are so unabl…
> how many people finally get it because of animations and playing with the maths instead of some old dude drawing a formula on a blackboard Visualisation helps of course, but if you want to be good at maths, you need to put the work and try to solve tons of problems. Most of what 3blue1brown shows in his fancy videos are things you can drawn on your own on a paper, and if you've never done it yourself, chances are y…
Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM
#869Earlier quoted context omitted.
Have you ever taught?
Yes and I standby genxy’s comment. It was always a question of motivation, not ability.
It is what differentiates stem fields fron liberal arts, in my biased view. You are either talented at maths, physics, chemistry or you just grind, study with thr books snd exercises, until you know enough to pass the exams.
Coming from gymnasium/high schoolit is very different. There the teachers tell you what to do, at uni you have to figure out yourself how you need to study to get the results.
US universities have been known in Europe for being a childs play, if you were any good at all in stem fields
Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM
#870Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The politics were mostly fine, but the students, especially those post-COVID, were the problem. I'm not sure this distinction can be made, really. > And don't get me started on the false disability claims (see [0] for a taste). If you even verbalize questioning one, you're eligible for discrimination. Case in point. It's exactly because of the politics both that the students feel empowered to make those claims, and…
Of course teaching pre/post-COVID is very different. Studies abound reveal this, as do plentiful anecdotes from both teachers and staff. > I'm not sure this distinction can be made, really. Which distinction can't be made? > It's exactly because of the politics... Which politics, concretely? I'm not actually sure what you're saying at all. I don't think you've articuled a point here. I actually came away confused at…
You said, and I quoted:
> The politics were mostly fine, but the students... were the problem.
The distinction, thus, is between "the politics" and "the students".
In the rest of my comment, I clearly exhibited that the thing that made "the students" problematic for you were "the politics" that they were expressing.
> Which politics, concretely?
The politics that underlie the false disability claims.
And also the politics that your student expressed by making the statement:
> I had a student claim, in the classroom forum for a STEM course, that making attendance optional (which I was pressured to do because of the high disability rate) was itself discriminatory
Which are the same politics described in the post above yours:
> it was a lot of fun interacting with them. But the politics behind it all got too annoying.
Which are also "the politics" that everyone means when it comes to conflicts between students and teachers in the modern era, and the ones that form the basis of the conflict that TFA is about. Which is to say, the politics whereby educators can do no right, and everything is discriminatory. You described yourself being put in a double bind: first you were politically pressured to make an accommodation for a "high disability rate" that you didn't even believe to be legitimate (and I think you were probably correct in this), and then you were told that this, too, would be considered discriminatory.
In short: the politics whereby the term "discriminatory" (and "bigoted", and the family of related -isms and -phobias) is simply a political bludgeon, which need not be connected to any ordinary understanding of what it means to treat people fairly or equally.
It is all shell games because the goal is not actually to improve outcomes (there is not even agreement about how to measure outcomes), but to keep the system feeling constant shame for supposed "discrimination" when outcomes are disparate.
> I'm not actually sure what you're saying at all. I don't think you've articuled a point here. I actually came away confused at multiple levels.
I explained a very clear notion: that when you described "the students" causing problems in response to someone describing "the politics" causing problems, you were talking about substantively the same phenomena. The students play a key role in perpetuating the political games, either because they stand to benefit personally or because they have been indoctrinated in some form or another.
> Did you read the linked article? Do you have a response to that?
You seem to be under the impression that I dispute your claims about false disability claims. I absolutely do not, and I was agreeing with you on this point.
What I am trying to explain to you is that these claims are part of a political expression: the fact that they might succeed is a show of political power, and the underlying theory of how to accommodate them is either not scientific or not actually aimed at optimizing per-student outcomes (or both). In particular, the metrics are not based in anything related to the described goals, but given purely in terms of identity-characteristic demographics of those who succeed.