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Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

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Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#861

Post by ako »

mattmaroon wrote: post #852
ako wrote: post #830

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know the end result is worse than disinformation? If the Russian disinformation allow Russia to destroy the freedom and democracy in Europe, and allow Russia to take over, that seems to me to much worse than limiting the publication of lies and slander.

Because whoever gets to determine what lies and slander are become your new dictators. If the problem is Russian bots, there’s a much easier way to solve it: make Facebook and the platforms that allow them to spread financially liable. You’re unironically arguing that giving up your freedom is a protection against losing your freedom.

Freedom is a scale, not binary. I'm willing to move a bit on that scale to avoid going completely to one of the opposites. I completely disagree with your suggestion that if you don't have complete freedom, you're at the complete opposite end, I.e. zero freedom.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#862

Post by qcnguy »

dependsontheq wrote: post #706

Let's be a bit more honest here, I think the Italian law is badly defined, but I also think the american perspective is wrong. We (all tech people everywhere me included) argued for a lot of time for free speech on the internet, but the result currently is that we built a system that is free speech for Russian and Chinese bots and actors. In Europe we are under daily attack from Russian accounts that spread massive a…

Interesting how now the list has expanded to include Chinese "bots" and "actors". Calling anyone who disagrees with your political beliefs a foreigner is an old and extremely paranoid, nasty rhetorical trick. Very similar to the people who call everything they dislike racism.

The polls don't lie and they show that there are hundreds of millions of people all over the west who just flatly disagree with your whole ideology. The unity you imagine would exist if not for shadow accounts doesn't exist, and it's delusional to believe it does.

No no. Just accept that you're a totalitarian dictator at heart, embrace the warmth of just being evil publicly, without pretense or obfuscation. "Silence the opposition!" you cry.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#863

Post by csoups14 »

yostrovs wrote: post #840
scrollaway wrote: post #792

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

> That's what it was

Fake electors plot, Georgia phone call to "find 11600 votes". You seem convinced that he just talks, we have ample evidence that isn't true.

> Even if they took over Congress, would that need they would be the new Congress? You really believe that?

I was unaware conspiracies are only illegal if they succeed.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#864

Post by hermanzegerman »

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #848
hermanzegerman wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no "European Global Censorship Programs". Maybe try to get your information elsewhere than Fox News (based on the Nonsense in all your recent comments)

> There are no "European Global Censorship Programs". Except Chat Control of course.

Where does the EU want to reach beyond their borders here?

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#865

Post by throw__away7391 »

Nextgrid wrote: post #796
dependsontheq wrote: post #706

Let's be a bit more honest here, I think the Italian law is badly defined, but I also think the american perspective is wrong. We (all tech people everywhere me included) argued for a lot of time for free speech on the internet, but the result currently is that we built a system that is free speech for Russian and Chinese bots and actors. In Europe we are under daily attack from Russian accounts that spread massive a…

> we are under daily attack from Russian accounts We would go a long way if our communication platforms weren't intentionally amplifying the most controversial voices for the sake of maximizing ad revenue. Back in the day the Russians needed to spend money to buy influence. Now they can just make their propaganda engaging enough and Western companies will happily host it and promote it for free .

This is the entire problem. This is possibly the single problem in the modern world. When social media first appeared, "feeds" were based on explicit subscription by the users and ordered chronologically. Later "likes" were added, but this was still based on deliberate user behavior and simple deterministic sorting while the ability to "repost" greatly expanded the reach of individual posts, later algorithms were introduced then the number of signals expanded beyond explicit user input to implicit engagement measures. Each step along this path has taken agency away from individuals.

I read articles and comments about people who were fired or suffered other consequences for something they said online, and the responses are righteous indignation--they ought to have known better than to post these things online! How did we get into this fucked up state of affairs? Social media started off as a way to talk to your friends, and over time your friends have been replaced with strangers, what they can say and who gets to say what controlled by centralized authorities, while individuals have been taught to self-censor.

It is not only the US companies or Russian bots, every government in the world is itching to get their thumb on the scale here to have a say in what the people are allowed to see, to hear, and to say.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#866

Post by register »

Moldoteck wrote: post #833
monkaiju wrote: post #670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough but thats not up to cloudflare to decide, if they operate in the country they must respect its laws

so CF is clear - if the law is not changed they'll leave italian market. That's fair

And he is more than welcome to do so. The services provided by Cloudflare can easily be replaced by more local providers that have no problem complying with Italian laws. The takedown might not happen within 30 minutes, but there would still be action and a response to a report from the authorities. Italy and Europe do not need the arrogance of those who believe they are above the law by virtue of a freedom that is used only as an ideological shield. As if Trump were really the champion of freedom, right?

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#867

Post by register »

perfmode wrote: post #609

Matthew Prince’s framing of Italy’s action as a “free speech assault by a shadowy cabal” is rhetorically exaggerated, but his underlying concerns about due process have legitimate basis—confirmed by EU Commission criticism of the same system. The reality is more nuanced than either party presents: Italy is enforcing an aggressive copyright protection regime with documented implementation flaws, while Prince is strate…

Exactly this.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#868

Post by ThinkBeat »

dependsontheq wrote: post #706

Let's be a bit more honest here, I think the Italian law is badly defined, but I also think the american perspective is wrong. We (all tech people everywhere me included) argued for a lot of time for free speech on the internet, but the result currently is that we built a system that is free speech for Russian and Chinese bots and actors. In Europe we are under daily attack from Russian accounts that spread massive a…

The west have had various forms for this since before the internet, and certainly have huge efforts similar to what you list above, but have in general been far more productive than bots from the other side.

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#869

Post by azangru »

flohofwoe wrote: post #748
CrzyLngPwd wrote: post #742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we cry "freedom of speech" when Russia/China/adversary shuts our propaganda-pushing media or tools out. Freedom of speech for me, not for thee, eh? I don't want my politicians deciding what is good or bad on the internet. I'm an adult, and I can decide for myself.

> Well, we cry "freedom of speech" when Russia/China/adversary shuts our propaganda-pushing media or tools out. That "cyring" must have been awfully quiet, I didn't hear anything at least.

I don't know if any of the links below will count as crying; but here are some, from the British media reporting on Russia:

    - BBC, 2018: Russia: Google removes Putin critic's ads from YouTube https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45471519
    - BBC, 2021: How Russia tries to censor Western social media https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-59687496
    - BBC, 2021: Russia slows down Twitter over 'banned content'  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56344304
    - BBC, 2021: Russia threatens YouTube ban for deleting RT channels https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58737433
    - BBC, 2021: Russia threatens to slow down Google over banned content https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57241779
    - Reuters, 2022: Russia blocks access to BBC and Voice of America websites  https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/russia-restricts-access-bbc-russian-service-radio-liberty-ria-2022-03-04/
    - The Guardian, 2022: Russia blocks access to Facebook and Twitter https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/04/russia-completely-blocks-access-to-facebook-and-twitter
    - BBC, 2022: Russia restricts social media access https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-60533083
    - BBC, 2022: Russia confirms Meta's designation as extremist https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-63218095
    - BBC, 2024: Data shows YouTube 'practically blocked' in Russia - https://monitoring.bbc.co.uk/product/b0003111
    - BBC, 2024: Russia's 2024 digital crackdown reshapes social media landscape - https://monitoring.bbc.co.uk/product/b0003arza

Re: Cloudflare CEO on the Italy fines

#870

Post by drysine »

flohofwoe wrote: post #748
CrzyLngPwd wrote: post #742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we cry "freedom of speech" when Russia/China/adversary shuts our propaganda-pushing media or tools out. Freedom of speech for me, not for thee, eh? I don't want my politicians deciding what is good or bad on the internet. I'm an adult, and I can decide for myself.

> Well, we cry "freedom of speech" when Russia/China/adversary shuts our propaganda-pushing media or tools out. That "cyring" must have been awfully quiet, I didn't hear anything at least.

"The EU condemns the totally unfounded decision by the Russian authorities to block access to over eighty European media in Russia.

This decision further restricts access to free and independent information and expands the already severe media censorship in Russia. The banned European media work according to journalistic principles and standards. They give factual information, also to Russian audiences, including on Russia’s illegal war of aggression against Ukraine.

In contrast, the Russian disinformation and propaganda outlets, against which the EU has introduced restrictive measures, do not represent a free and independent media. Their broadcasting activities in the EU have been suspended because these outlets are under the control of the Russian authorities and they are instrumental in supporting the war of aggression against Ukraine.

Respect for the freedom of expression and media is a core value for the EU. It will continue supporting availability of factual information also to audiences in Russia."[0]

Funny, eh?

[0] https://www.eeas.europa.eu/eeas/russia-statement-high-repres...

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