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Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

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Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#861

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, and the $40k truck that you are proposing is not gonna work either though.

You have not made that argument or given any details on why you think that might be the case. I know a lot of people interested in an EV pickup, but who aren't going to spend Rivian money on a vehicle. There are zero options for a $40k EV pickup truck. It's literally never been offered to any buyer in this country. So, we're both arguing with anecdata, but I'd argue for trying it before we say it can't work.

> I know a lot of people interested in an EV pickup, but who aren't going to spend Rivian money on a vehicle.

Used Rivians are in the 40s-50s. How many of those people are buying them?

Exactly.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#862

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) it was anti-market and that's why they were taken to the WTO, not the other around. This violation is also explicitly spelt out in Section 7 Non-Tariff Measures of China's 2001 WTO Accession Protocol. Not sure what point you are making with "stolen data," but subsidies must be given to all or none -- no picking winners or losers. The key idea here is a level playing field. 2) Restricting subsidies to some, but not…

1) Let me make a hypothetical. If you take tech from 2 companies and give it to 50 companies, that is both pro-market and something you will get sued for and lose. 2) You seem to be refusing to acknowledge that some actions have mixed consequences. Having many of those subsidies helped the market. Restricting them hurt the market compared to not restricting them. You can't look at just the restrictions to make the ju…

1) Sure, no problem with private individual companies sharing their tech with other companies/competitors via licensing or "voluntary" joint-venture; or seeking legal remedy to get compensated or to ban further infringement. This is perfectly fine in a functioning market. In China's case, however, we are talking Chinese gov't forcing compulsory terms in negotiation between private companies and actively restricting market access conditioned on tech transfer from private foreign companies to local companies. And by refusing to enforce IPR of foreigners, preventing any legal remedy. In other word, anti-market.

That's also why Japanese + Korean who hold 80% of all ACTIVE lithium ion battery patents are pursing legal actions OUTSIDE China, in neutral regions such as the EU. For instance, Japan + Korea patent pool, Tulip Innovation, in Hungary started enforcing their IP this year and already won significant legal victories and sales injunctions in Germany. Sunwoda, EV battery suppliers to Dacia, considered a low-hanging fruit of China's battery industry, was the first to go; and there wil be many more to come, such as CATL/BYD protected by China's "corruption," to borrow your word, aren't too safe in functioning markets outside China where IPR is enforced.

You seem very hung up on the fallacy of numbers, as if benefiting 50 companies justifies the means. If any, that sheer number of companies demonstrates that the industry is at infant stage. And, as the industry matures, that number is likely whittle down to a dozen or fewer. Your Chinese gov't certainly does not want all 100+ EV companies still in business today, already down from nearly 500 not too long ago. In the EV battery sector, however, China's alreadu had preordained national champions all along, namely CATL/BYD, everyone else in the business is there for window dressing. Otherwise, this means very little.

Finally, no matter how much China try to fake it, everything you are describing here is called mercantilism, or nationalistic policies of protecting domestic champions from import, or foreign competition, and maximizing exports/profit -- perhaps, the 18th Century British Empire and the East India Company ring a bell for you? This isn't very compatible with the market economies outside China.

2) Not about consequences, but how we get there.

3) Again, that's what China's neo-mercantilism is.

Thank you for playing, but I suspect we are going to make any progress at this point.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#863

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I think that's part of it I can assure you there's also a lot of people running around with their brights on. I've seen them switch (after aggressively flashing mine) and the brights are a wider beam. So it is not just the intensity. My running hypothesis is the autobright features on some cars is to blame. My friend drives around with his on and I definitely notice it doesn't properly react. > they just drive…

I live in a pretty urban area, so maybe that's why I haven't seen so many brights. I've heard the autobright theory and it certainly makes sense though, especially in areas where people have a reason to use their brights. > [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3pTHSIYFlg I believe this technology is generally called adaptive headlights, and is implemented in quite a few cars. I believe some quirk of US laws (which sp…

I live in an urban area, but not what I'd call a big city. There are plenty of dark areas so people do put on their brights even though it actually isn't necessary. I see people turn them on anytime there's 100ft without a streetlight. Though I've still seen some of this in major cities like LA, though I feel like the highbeam rate is lower.

Then again, I also see people turn them on in the fog and rain...

But I'm convinced it isn't a singular problem. I'm certain the LEDs are part of the issue, but not the whole story. I mean for example, improperly aligned headlights isn't as big of a problem when the lights aren't as bright. But when they are brighter then this matters a lot more. Hell, I've seen brand new vehicles be misaligned.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#864

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People only want them because of the stupid loophole that lets vehicles over a certain weight bypass regulations. If the massive cars cost what they should, people wouldn't buy them as much.

In Chicago there were a lot of major roads where driving a pick-up truck was illegal.

Such as?

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#865

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i mean, they are a lie as they exist today. They were sold as low emissions vehicles (and in the EU this lets them avoid a bunch of regulations!) but real world data shows they have negligible emissions impact. Just because people _could_ use them differently if things were different, doesnt matter, people dont.

EVs, as part of the world economy, aren't emissions-free either. Just at the tailpipe (or lack thereof). Rare-earth mining is very energy-intensive.

This old talking point? Studies show that EVs break even with ICE cars for total lifecycle emission in the first 1-2 years, or 15-30kkm.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#866

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Remains to be seen if it’s smart - personally I think erev is going to be obsoleted very quickly by batteries getting better and cheaper. You can already buy 1000v 5min charging EVs in china, as well as semi-solid state batteries. And the batteries get cheaper year on year, relentlessly. EREVs are a way better idea than the lie of PHEVs, but their time in the market is still limited. I wouldn’t be making that bet as…

Every 5 years, there's a better battery in development 5 years hence. So I'm a bit skeptical that just a better battery would exclude hybrids. Any battery improvement would improve PHEV and EREV vehicles also, and they'd retain their advantage over straight EVs in range. The advantages of these hybrids is a) using multiple fuels - has all of the main 80%-of-trips-local on electric range advantage of EVs, combined wit…

If batteries get cheap enough, the fixed extra cost for the complexity of the additional ER system will become prohibitive & uncompetitive. Who wants to pay extra for a car with >1000ml range? Almost no-one, it’s unnecessary for 99.9% of people. We know this because almost no cars have massive or dual gas tanks.

Short to medium haul trucks are already being replaced by EVs in china, Europe is next. I agree about long haul US distances though, it will be quite some years before they can go full ev, the physics is hard.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#867

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 90% of F-150s are daily driver grocery-getters it's my impression that electric vehicles are 90% grocery getters, unless the drivers are young in which case it's takeout. what else would you use an electric for, commuting? when you commute, on the way home, you shop.

They are suggesting that most F-150s are not purchased for real truck work like hauling stuff. Instead, they are purchased by people who use them exclusively to drive on paved roads, in towns/cities, mostly carrying passengers instead of large cargo. Therefore the concern about going off-road to remote locations isn't a real concern for this market.

>They are suggesting that most F-150s are not purchased for real truck work like hauling stuff

correct, but it's in the context of the their misimpression that "truck stuff" would be the reason to buy electrics. and I'm pushing back on that saying that the people who buy groceries are the people who are buying electrics. people who "have a commercial job to do" are less likely to experiment with a new technology: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it, especially if your income depends on it"

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#868

Not a good thing. I think Ford has quality issues, but EVs with 500 miles of range are viable. Most pickup owners do not tow. This was an American foot in a market that the Japanese own

Ford's quality is about average. Not great, not terrible. They should have put a bigger battery in the Lightning, like GM does with the Silverado (and gets north of 400 miles of range). Instead, they are giving over the market to GM.

I had terrible experiences with Ford. Silverado EV is also not selling well from what I have seen

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#869

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans are not allowed to have better quality, lower priced Chinese vehicles because they have to suffer the incompetence, failure, abuse, and plunder by their ruling class due to … the decades of incompetence, failure, abuse, and plunder of their parasitic and alien ruling class. It is easy to understand what the tariffs are attempting and why, but what supporters don’t get is that at the very least it’s all wron…

Or because UAW members are not willing to work 996 for Chinese wages.

The labor cost of manufacturing a vehicle are a very tiny portion of the cost of the vehicle.

Re: Ford kills the All-Electric F-150

#870

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many states in the United States it is illegal to buy a car directly from the manufacturer or from a dealer owned by the manufacturer. In all states it is illegal for a manufacturer with an existing independent dealer network (which is to say, every manufacturer except the EV startups) to sell directly to the customer or to open a new factory-owned dealer. So companies like Ford can only sell what independent deal…

How did dealers get a better deal with states than manufacturers? I would assume that who has more money (manufacturers) write the law.

Its from when cars were new and it was hard to convince people to buy them to start with instead of just using their horses and buggies and manufacturers didn't spend money on marketing or shipping or sales outside of the local area. So independent car dealers setup shop, bought cars, shipped them across the states, marketed them, trained mechanics to service them, built gas stations, and built a customer base. Then as soon as all the marketing was done and sales started picking up in the area the manufacturer would pop in, undercut the local dealer who just spent all the money marketing and showing off cars and building up stock, buy out their skilled mechanics, and left the dealer with all the debt from advertising and training that they could no longer pay off.

For awhile they got away with it, but eventually it became obvious as to what manufacturers were doing and not having to advertise and built up a local car and mechanic and gas supply economy, so legal protections were put in place to protect the independent dealers from getting shafted.

Of course add on another 100 years of political fuckery all around the industry and you get the mess of today.

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