Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#861

Post by myrmidon » Mon, Dec 01, 2025, 2:09 PM UTC

potato3732842 wrote: post #608

mlinhares wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't been in a car accident for 15 years, not even fender benders, that doesn't mean I shouldn't take insurance. As someone from a random developing nation car accidents deliver crippling debt and destroy lives there frequently because insurance is not mandatory. The developing nation blindly ignore the externalities of not having insurance (instead of spreading the cost throughout society, only a few people bea…

It comes down to the amortized cost of insurance vs amortized cost of not. Say nothing about how incentives get fucked all to hell by breaking things across many parties (principal agent problem) and the money distorts things. And this isn't just insurance. Just because someone who work is being made for by law or by rule says that their work output reduces the failure rate from X to Y doesn't mean that the cost of t…

Costs to clean up a mess from an underregulated industry can be bigger then the whole industry causing it. This is not even untypical.

Examples: Leaded gas, tobacco, CO2 emissions, dam breaks, reactor meltdowns, air pollution (really pollution in general; river/groundwater contamination for your septic tank example)...

If you underregulate, you end up with frequent cases where not even imprisoning and dispossessing everyone remotely involved/culpable is gonna get you sufficient compensation; this is extremely undesirable.

Companies are frequently gonna steer towards such scenarios, too, because they can allow them to externalize costs.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#862

Post by myrmidon » Mon, Dec 01, 2025, 2:24 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #307

monero-xmr wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but if the US truly has the best military (and it does 100x) then when push comes to shove, the US will destroy anyone who tries to undermine it. Very dangerous game to oppose it. Being able to construct things quickly is important, but if the US can militarily seize nearly every country on earth in days, the power is not necessarily where the kit is located

The US military isn't that scary; the evidence to date is that it's ability to destroy counties ends somewhere around Iran's strength. The modelling I've seen is that any US-China war will take place in Asia and China will probably win it unless the US gets a lot of help (always possible). And the US has already been undermined by the likes of China, Russia and India and there isn't a lot they can do about it in the…

> evidence to date is that it's ability to destroy counties ends somewhere around Iran's strength

What kind of evidence? US is not destroying countries because its citizens don't want it to, and are generally not willing to pay the price for it.

If "the US" actually wanted, it could kill every inhabitant of continental Europe within less than a decade in a conventional war; the price in American lifes would be very high, but the outcome (without external intervention) seems pretty certain to me (speaking as a European).

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#863

Post by hollerith » Mon, Dec 01, 2025, 2:35 PM UTC

amrocha wrote: post #800

hollerith wrote: post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last great economic expansion or at least economic reconfiguration was internet services (which of course is mostly distinct from financial services) and the US ended up with a very dominant trade position in internet services.

If all US internet companies stopped existing tomorrow the world would be no worse off for it. The internet infrastructure is great. Networking hardware is great. Private internet companies built on top of it? Big whoop

The big whoop is the 100s of billions of dollars of revenue that flow to American internet companies from the rest of the world every quarter (and the high profit margins on that revenue—much higher than the margins of say Foxconn or DJI).

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#864

Post by tovej » Mon, Dec 01, 2025, 3:27 PM UTC

seec wrote: post #756

tovej wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Centrally planning? My guy, the EU is not founding companies, it is giving existing companies subsidies. The profits of those companies will not be public, they are private. Nationalization and regularization are both on the decline. The opposite has happened: privatization of state monopolies and deregulatization. I also think it's hilarious that you think a) the EU is feminist, and b) that feminism is leftist. What…

You are arguing about form and semantics. Yes the bureaucrats have added a indirection level to shield themselves from consequences and fill the pockets of their friends. This is basically the definition of corrupt communism. Where political figure assign and distribute the work and rewards the commissars who oversee the work. Your head is so far up your ass that you don't even realise that you basically described th…

Just read your own text back please. It is full of ideological rhetoric and devoid of calm rational discussion.

Let's just pick out some examples here: "Your head is so far up your ass that you don't even realise that you basically described the Chinese system", "But you'll tell us how actually it's all liberalism and whatnot, for sure you have a special history we don't know about that contradict every common sources we know about", "even the hardest left-wingers are not stupid enough to believe the garbage they sell to the wider populace", "You seem to be getting high on your own supply".

Please calm down and respond to the points I made if you wish to debate me. As it stands you are making incorrect assumptions about my views while hitting random political talking points along the way. It's not really possible to respond to this wall of nonsense, as it barely has any connection to the discussion at hand.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#865

Post by ecshafer » Mon, Dec 01, 2025, 3:36 PM UTC

tovej wrote: post #369

nebula8804 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment would make more sense if more than ~38% of the country had a college degree. Can you really make the argument that college is truly a middle class concept if not even half of the populations has a bachelor's degree? I guess if you include community college which has really helped to serve the downtrodden get on their dream paths then I guess it makes more sense?

The middle class is something in between the capitalist class and the working class, it's badly defined. If you're in the capital class, you're getting your income from the assets you own. If you're in the working class, you're getting your income from working. I've heard multiple definitions for a middle class, eiher one that owns some capital in the form of rental apartments or stocks, or that the middle class has…

IMO Middle Class = PMC (Professional Managerial Class) in Marxist terms. They are the members of the working class (they have to work or they will starve, go homeless, etc) but are highly compensated because they are essential to functioning of the system and have rare skills. Engineers, Lawyers, Doctors, Managers, Accountants, etc.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#866

Post by staticman2 » Mon, Dec 01, 2025, 4:20 PM UTC

anon291 wrote: post #142

jswelker wrote: post #102

Higher ed is like employer based health insurance in that they are both weird path dependent historical accidents. People want cheap healthcare, and it got shoehorned into an odd employer fringe benefit system that really is not at all related healthcare in any intrinsic way. People want job training, and it got shoehorned into extra departments at liberal arts universities intended as aristocrat finishing schools. J…

It didn't get shoe horned. Before college degrees proliferated, employers had entrance exams and were expected to train people. A supreme court decision found this to be racist. Companies could be held liable so most companies stopped that and demanded a 'fair' credential. Then everyone had to go to college

The courts never banned all entrance exams. Many employers still have entrance exams.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#867

Post by sandyarmstrong » Mon, Dec 01, 2025, 5:20 PM UTC

pavluha wrote: post #717

Workaccount2 wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an actually easy an effective escape hatch right here in the US: Community college to state school path. You can get a full bachelors degree for ~$35k. All four years, $35k. Not per year. Full degree. $35k. And that's before any scholarships or grants. Kids and parents are just insane though, and want to flex about the college they are going to from day one. Its become a ritualistic practice with social sham…

If I remember that right. It is not that easy to get into the state school in our state. UW engineering departments required GPA 4.0 last year. Kids who had GPA 3.9 or less had 0 chances getting into the UW engineering schools.

That is probably not true if you are transferring from a community college after two years. It's entering as a freshman direct from high school that has all the barriers.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#868

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Dec 01, 2025, 5:48 PM UTC

chrisweekly wrote: post #697

enraged_camel wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America's post-war strength was built on unusually strong education. After the war, America had far more schooling overall than other countries. It was one of the many factors that made America a powerhouse in the 50s and 60s. Economic historians Claudia Goldin and Lawrence Katz, who are essentially the gold standard reference here, show that the US became the richest nation precisely because it led the world in mass…

+1 outstanding rebuttal w/ facts and data-backed insights, thank you for that

[deleted]

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#869

Post by hitekker » Mon, Dec 01, 2025, 5:56 PM UTC

chrisweekly wrote: post #697

enraged_camel wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America's post-war strength was built on unusually strong education. After the war, America had far more schooling overall than other countries. It was one of the many factors that made America a powerhouse in the 50s and 60s. Economic historians Claudia Goldin and Lawrence Katz, who are essentially the gold standard reference here, show that the US became the richest nation precisely because it led the world in mass…

+1 outstanding rebuttal w/ facts and data-backed insights, thank you for that

Hmmm, I don't see the outstanding part of the rebuttal. While it raises real evidence, it doesn't address the elephant of overeducation. The cited countries, for example, are faltering in myriad ways that their electorates have decidedly reacted against; enormous education sold to too many, falling far short of its promises.

Like many of us here, I've been overeducated and I'm against overeducation. "Not letting your education get in the way of your learning" summarizes that view, which I think use to be a tenet of the hacker ethos underlying this forum.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#870

Post by DiscourseFan » Mon, Dec 01, 2025, 6:23 PM UTC

yardie wrote: post #860

DiscourseFan wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The roommates thing is just part of the socialization of US universities, since many kids are not living anywhere near home and if they aren't forced to become close friends with someone by, say, sleeping right next to them, they often go a little nuts. By the time you are an upperclassman you are generally given your own room or you live off campus.

I've done the US university dorm living. I was already pretty well socialized being involved in many social causes and clubs. Unlike the movies, my roommate and I didn't turn into lifelong friends. Our living arrangement was strictly business. Now, I am lifelong friends with my apartment roommates. We shared a house together but did not share a room. Also, campus ties you closer to home more than you imagine. They sh…

>I am lifelong friends with my apartment roommates. We shared a house together but did not share a room.

It depends entirely on the person. I had a similar thing happen to me, except that I managed to get a single my first couple years of school. But I know from others, that it often creates a very intimate, fraternal bond which gives kids some semblance of a family bond before they are able to get a real social life, join clubs, make friends, find a partner etc.