Live data from Hacker News

The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

newyorker.com

861–870 of 1001 posts

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#861
post #760
post #742

In some realpolitik/moral sense, does it matter whether it is actually "thinking", or "conscious", or has "autonomy" / "agency" of its own? What seems to matter more is if enough people believe that Claude has those things. If people credibly think AI may have those qualities, it behooves them to treat the AI like any other person they have a mostly-texting relationship with. Not in a utility-maximizing Pascal's Wage…

> Conversely if you're able to have a fulfilling, empathetic relationship with Claude, it might help people form fulfilling, mutually-empathetic relationships with the humans around them. Well, that's kind of the point: if you have actually used LLMs for any amount of time, you are bound to find out that you can't have a fulfilling, empathetic relationship with them. Even if they offer a convincing simulacrum of a th…

Can you not have a fulfilling empathetic relationship with a tool? Or with any entity regardless of its expressions of animacy or present effectiveness?

I’m less arguing for its animacy than arguing for the value of treating all things with respect and empathy. As the sibling comment observed, there is a lot of personal and pro-social value in extending the generosity of your empathy to ever-wider categories of things.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#862

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, people were using words for thousands of years before there were any dictionaries/linguists/academics. Top-down theory of word definitions is just wrong. People are perfectly capable of using words without any formalities.

I'd argue the presence of dictionaries proves the exact opposite. People realised there was an issue of talking past one another due to inexact definitions and then came to an agreement on those definitions, wrote them down and built a process of maintaining them. In any case, even if there isnt a _single_ definition of a given subject, in order to have a discussion around a given area, both sides need to agree on so…

Alright, if you got that conclusion from existence of dictionaries, what do you get from this fact:

Wittgenstein, who's considered one of most brilliant philosophers of XX century, in _Philosophical Investigations_ (widely regarded as the most important book of 20th-century philosophy) does not provide definitions, but instead goes through a series of examples, remarks, etc. In preface he notes that this structure is deliberate and he could not write it differently. The topic of the book includes philosophy of language ("the concepts of meaning, of understanding, of a proposition, of logic, the foundations of mathematics, states of consciousness,...").

His earlier book _Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus_ was very definition-heavy. And, obviously, Wittgenstein was well aware of things like dictionaries, and, well, all philosophical works up to that point. He's not the guy who's just slacking.

Another thing to note is that attempts to build AI using definitions of words failed, and not for a lack of trying. (E.g. Cyc project is running since 1980s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyc). OTOH LLMs which derive word meaning from usage rather than definition seems to work quite well.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#863
Having gone to academia for multiple degrees in philosophy has caused me to hate the “everyone has an opinion” on MACHINE LEARNING and thinking.

Wittgenstein has a lot to say on people talking about stuff they know they don’t know.

The premise that what happens in the world’s most advanced Markov chain and in what happens in a human’s brain is similar is plausible, but currently unknowable.

Yet the anthropomorphizing is so damn ubiquitous that people are happy to make the same mistake in reasoning over and over.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#864
post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it’s an oversimplification as accuracy is what constrains LLMs across so many domains. If you’re a wealthy person asking ChatGPT to write a prenup or other contract to use would be an act of stupidity unless you vetted it with an actual lawyer. My most desired use case is closer, but LLMs are still more than an order of magnitude below what I am willing to tolerate. IMO that’s what maturity means in AI…

You're conflating two different questions. I'm not arguing LLMs are mature or reliable enough for high-stakes tasks. My argument is about why they produce output that creates the illusion of understanding in the language domain, while the same techniques applied to other domains (video generation, molecular modeling, etc.) don't produce anything resembling 'understanding' despite comparable or greater effort. The acc…

I’m not saying these tasks are high stakes so much as they inherently require high levels of accuracy. Programmers can improve code so the accuracy threshold for utility is way lower when someone is testing before deployment. That difference exists based on how you’re trying to use it independent of how critical the code actually is.

The degree to which LLMs successfully fake understanding depends heavily on how much accuracy you’re looking for. I’ve judged their output as gibberish on a task someone else felt it did quite well. If anything they make it clear how many people just operate on vague associations without any actual understanding of what’s going on.

In terms of map vs territory, LLMs get trained on a host of conflicting information but they don’t synthesize that into uncertainty. Ask one what the average distance between the earth and the moon and you’ll get a number because the form of the response in training data is always a number, look at several websites and you’ll see a bunch of different numbers literally thousands of miles apart which seems odd as we know the actual distance at any moment to well within an inch. Anyway, the inherent method of training is simply incapable of that kind of analysis.

  The average lunar distance is approximately 385,000 km https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_distance
  The average distance between the Earth and the Moon is 384 400 km (238 855 miles). https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/space-astronomy/how-far-away-moon
  The Moon is approximately 384,000 km (238,600 miles) away from Earth, on average. https://www.britannica.com/science/How-Far-Is-the-Moon-From-Earth
  The Moon is an average of 238,855 miles (384,400 km) away. https://spaceplace.nasa.gov/moon-distance/en/
  The average distance to the Moon is 382,500 km
  https://nasaeclips.arc.nasa.gov/shared_assets/resources/distance-to-the-moon/438170main_GLDistancetotheMoon.pdf

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#865

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But language is the input and the vector space within which their knowledge is encoded and stored. The don't have a concept of a duck beyond what others have described the duck as. I guess if we limit ourselves to "one-modal LLMs" yes, but nowadays we have multimodal ones, who could think of a duck in the way of language, visuals or even audio.

You don’t understand. If humans had no words to describe a duck, they would still know what a duck is . Without words, LLMs would have no way to map an encounter with a duck to anything useful.

Which makes sense for text LLMs yes, but what about LLMs that deal with images? How can you tell they wouldn't work without words? It just happens to be words we use for interfacing with them, because it's easy for us to understand, but internally they might be conceptualizing things in a multitude of ways.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#866

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like it for a permanent solution, but "synthetic thought" might make a good enough placeholder until we figure this out. It feels most important to differentiate because I believe some parties have a personal interest in purposely confusing human thought with whatever LLMs are doing right now.

.

>"artificial thought"

How about Artificial Intelligence?

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#867

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>>There are no true and untrue claims about how the brain works, because we have no idea how it works. Which is why if you pick up a neuroscience textbook it's 400 pages of blank white pages, correct? There are different levels of understanding. I don't need to know how a TV works to know there aren't little men and women acting out the TV shows when I put them on. I don't need to know how the brain works in detail…

The trouble is that no one knows enough about how the brain works to refute that claim.

There's no serious claim that needs refuting.

I don't think any serious person thinks LLMs work like the human brain.

People claiming this online aren't going around murdering their spouses like you'd delete an old LLama model from your hard drive.

I'm not sure why people keep posting these sorts of claims they can't possibly actually believe if we look at their demonstrable real life behavior.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#868

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, autoregressive next token prediction can be Turing complete. This alone should give you a big old pause before you say "can't do X". Lots of things are Turing complete. We don't usually think they're smart, unless it's the first time we see a computer and have no idea how it works An LLM is a markov chain mathematically. We can build an LLM with a context window of one token and it's basically a token freque…

Again, you're taking a shortcut. "Markov chain" as an excuse to declare "no intelligence". It would be much more honest to say "LLMs are not intelligent because I don't want them to be". Would also explain why you overlook the ever-mounting pile of tasks that were thought to require intelligence, and that LLMs now casually beat an average (presumably intelligent) human at.

If you go around believing all things no one has disproved yet, you will have a very busy belief system.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#869

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see how being critical of this is a knee jerk response. Thinking , like intelligence and many other words designating complex things, isn’t a simple topic. The word and concept developed in a world where it referred to human beings, and in a lesser sense, to animals. To simply disregard that entire conceptual history and say, “well it’s doing a thing that looks like thinking, ergo it’s thinking” is the lazy m…

That, and the article was a major disappointment. It made no case. It's a superficial piece of clueless fluff. I have had this conversation too many times on HN. What I find astounding is the simultaneous confidence and ignorance on the part of many who claim LLMs are intelligent. That, and the occultism surrounding them. Those who have strong philosophical reasons for thinking otherwise are called "knee-jerk". Ad ho…

I feel like despite the close analysis you grant to the meanings of formalization and syntactic, you've glossed over some more fundamental definitions that are sort of pivotal to the argument at hand.

> LLMs do not reason. They do not infer. They do not analyze.

(definitions from Oxford Languages)

reason(v): think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic.

to avoid being circular, I'm willing to write this one off because of the 'think' and 'understand', as those are the root of the question here. However, forming a judgement by a process of logic is precisely what these LLMs do, and we can see that clearly in chain-of-logic LLM processes.

infer(v): deduce or conclude (information) from evidence and reasoning rather than from explicit statements.

Again, we run the risk of circular logic because of the use of 'reason'. An LLM is for sure using evidence to get to conclusions, however.

analyze(v): examine methodically and in detail the constitution or structure of (something, especially information), typically for purposes of explanation and interpretation.

This one I'm willing to go to bat for completely. I have seen LLM do this, precisely according to the definition above.

For those looking for the link to the above definitions - they're the snippets google provides when searching for "SOMETHING definition". They're a non-paywalled version of OED definitions.

Philosophically I would argue that it's impossible to know what these processes look like in the human mind, and so creating an equivalency (positive or negative) is an exercise in futility. We do not know what a human memory looks like, we do not know what a human thought looks like, we only know what the output of these things looks like. So the only real metric we have for an apples-to-apples comparison is the appearance of thought, not the substance of the thing itself.

That said, there are perceptible differences between the output of a human thought and what is produced by an LLM. These differences are shrinking, and there will come a point where we can no longer distinguish machine thinking and human thinking anymore (perhaps it won't be an LLM doing it, but some model of some kind will). I would argue that at that point the difference is academic at best.

Say we figure out how to have these models teach themselves and glean new information from their interactions. Say we also grant them directives to protect themselves and multiply. At what point do we say that the distinction between the image of man and man itself is moot?

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#870

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLMs work nothing like Karl Friston's free energy principle though

LLMs embody the free-energy principle computationally. They maintain an internal generative model of language and continually minimize “surprise”, the difference between predicted and actual tokens, during both training and infeence. In Friston’s terms, their parameters encode beliefs about the causes of linguistic input; forward passes generate predictions, and backpropagation adjusts internal states to reduce predi…

You might have lost me but what you're describing doesn't sound like an LLM. E.g:

> each new token selection aims to bring predicted sensory input (the next word) into alignment with the model’s expectations.

what does that mean? An llm generates the next word based on what best matches its training, with some level of randomisation. Then it does it all again. It's not a percepual process trying to infer a reality from sensor data or anything

Post reply on HN