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Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

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Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#861

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany having salt with added fluoride is very common. There is salt without it if you don’t want it though.

That is not true. You are probably thinking of iodine. Actually fluoride is prohibited in children's toothpaste in Germany because of its suspected neurotoxicity. EDIT: I checked. It is possible to buy salt with added fluoride in Germany but it comes with the health note "Zusätzliche fluoridhaltige Präparate sollten nur auf ärztliche Empfehlung eingenommen werden.", which means you should only use it on recommendatio…

> Actually fluoride is prohibited in children's toothpaste in Germany because of its suspected neurotoxicity.

I can't find any information on this, do you have a source? According to Wikipedia fluoride toothpaste is recommended by health officials in Germany for children(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_by_countr...)

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#862

Putting fluoride in water promotes freedom. That sounds crazy, but let me justify it. If you are poor you can't go anywhere or buy anything. You're not free if you're poor. If you are sick, you may be confined to a hospital bed or not feel good enough to do anything. If you are sick you're not free. Putting fluoride in water reduces dental costs and incidence of cavities and therefore tooth infections, particularly a…

> the government forcing you to take a medication.

You're free to drink water that's not from the tap. Companies sell this legally. The government doesn't force anything

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#863

Putting fluoride in water promotes freedom. That sounds crazy, but let me justify it. If you are poor you can't go anywhere or buy anything. You're not free if you're poor. If you are sick, you may be confined to a hospital bed or not feel good enough to do anything. If you are sick you're not free. Putting fluoride in water reduces dental costs and incidence of cavities and therefore tooth infections, particularly a…

Adding fluoride to water was revolutionary in the 1940s, but its benefits have significantly declined since fluoride toothpaste became common in the 1970s. While fluoridation made sense when products containing fluoride weren't widely available, it is much less effective and necessary now. Sure, some countries and communities may still see benefits from it, but widespread fluoridation doesn't seem necessary in many p…

Kids really suck at brushing their teeth

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#864
post #164

It is trivial today to get whatever level of fluoride is recommended for dental health, via toothpaste. So there is no compelling need to fluoridate as there exist viable alternatives to achieve the same that fluoridation is for any other purpose than dental health. In the USA, dental care is not covered by public insurance, and is an optional add-on to insurance through one’s employer. So without addressing at all w…

Trivial is what we have now. Taking fluoride from the water means people will have to spend extra time and money on fluoride and dental treatments. When I viewed it, your comment appeared directly after this one (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43524171), which talks about a town in Canada that voted to abandon fluoride , saw worse health outcomes, and then voted to reinstate it. This tells us that fluoride is not trivially available to people, and taking it away from them enriches corporations while making people less healthy.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#865

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The conclusion from the largest and strongest studyies is that there is a certain level of fluoride that harms IQ: https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/whatwestudy/assessments/noncancer/... . "The NTP monograph concluded, with moderate confidence, that higher levels of fluoride exposure, such as drinking water containing more than 1.5 milligrams of fluoride per liter, are associated with lower IQ in children" They found fluorid…

Why did you omit the sentence immediately after the one you quoted? > The NTP review was designed to evaluate total fluoride exposure from all sources and was not designed to evaluate the health effects of fluoridated drinking water alone. …or the following sentence, which they bolded to ensure the reader wouldn't miss it? > It is important to note that there were insufficient data to determine if the low fluoride le…

Anyone who talks about who was President when a study was done is immediately clarifying for you that they have a political agenda.

If there’s a problem with a study, or a study is particularly strong, that should be due to something about the study itself (methodology, significance of results, etc), not its political environment.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#866

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The conclusion from the largest and strongest studyies is that there is a certain level of fluoride that harms IQ: https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/whatwestudy/assessments/noncancer/... . "The NTP monograph concluded, with moderate confidence, that higher levels of fluoride exposure, such as drinking water containing more than 1.5 milligrams of fluoride per liter, are associated with lower IQ in children" They found fluorid…

Why did you omit the sentence immediately after the one you quoted? > The NTP review was designed to evaluate total fluoride exposure from all sources and was not designed to evaluate the health effects of fluoridated drinking water alone. …or the following sentence, which they bolded to ensure the reader wouldn't miss it? > It is important to note that there were insufficient data to determine if the low fluoride le…

The study and my quote literally say " drinking water containing more than 1.5 milligrams of fluoride per liter".

It did not find it lowered IQ in all drinking water concentrations, but it definitely found it in some drinking water concentrations.

So yes, they did explicitly find fluoride in drinking water at certain concentrations was associated with lower IQ.

Are you defining "drinking water concentrations" as "concentrations that have not been shown to be associated with lower IQ."?

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#867

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The problem is science challenges those who derive power from means other than reason." There's been a fundamental shift away from science in the last fifty years or so. Some is understandable—chemical pollution, etc. which is unreasonably blamed on science instead of industry's bad behavior—but there's another thread running here and it's an anti-establishment one. The question I can't fully put a measure on is why…

Not to stir the pot even more however when a vaccine does go bad, it goes really bad The narrative around vaccines has been completely strong armed in different ways by both sides. Which has left legitimate cases of bad reactions to be largely ignored, underreported and/or not believed, and carries a negative stigma. My wife has had a medically verified bad reaction to vaccine it was extremely severe. It took multipl…

"Not to stir the pot even more however when a vaccine does go bad, it goes really bad"

I'm frightfully aware of that. I'm old enough to remember the polio epidemic in the 1950s and the bad batch of polio vaccine that killed kids.

I wasn't in the US and the Salk vaccine wasn't available where I was living and it was another five or so years before we were vaccinated. Before that one kid in my school class died and another ended up in calipers.

Despite everyone knowing about the bad batch and the deaths I cannot tell you how relieved everyone was when the vaccine finally arrived. No one—not one single kid—at my school skipped the vaccine. To not have it would have been unthinkable, it wasn't even a consideration.

Frankly, it horrifies me how risk averse and timid people have become these days. How thinking has changed since that time is frightening.

That's not to say things don't go wrong—they do and all too often as you are aware, and even at this distance I can't help but feel sorry for both you and your wife.

Right, that Salk vaccine killed people but saved millions of others, even now the live attenuated Sabin vaccine occasionally goes rogue mutates and gives people polio but both of those vaccines have almost eradicated that fucking horrible disease from the face of the planet, it's only politics and misinformation that have stopped that from happening.

What are we to do when things are beneficial on a large scale yet are nevertheless responsible for a small number of tragedies? For instance, almost everyone on the planet loves their smartphone yet they kill innocent people—albeit indirectly when irresponsible drivers who are driving and texting at the same time hit and kill pedestrians.

When that happens we don't call for smartphones to be banned, same when a passenger jet clashes. But it's a different story with vaccines, fluoride in water, chemicals in foods. For some illogical reason suddenly all hell breaks loose and people become quite irrational.

BTW, over the years I've had many, many dozen vaccine shots for many different diseases and I've never had a negative reaction. That's not to say it won't happen on my next visit to the doctor or, say, to next person who's next in line in the doctor's surgery.

Unfortunately, life's dangerous and it's eventually fatal. As I see it, these scientific discoveries—whilst imperfect—ameliorate that condition somewhat.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#869
post #862

Putting fluoride in water promotes freedom. That sounds crazy, but let me justify it. If you are poor you can't go anywhere or buy anything. You're not free if you're poor. If you are sick, you may be confined to a hospital bed or not feel good enough to do anything. If you are sick you're not free. Putting fluoride in water reduces dental costs and incidence of cavities and therefore tooth infections, particularly a…

> the government forcing you to take a medication. You're free to drink water that's not from the tap. Companies sell this legally. The government doesn't force anything

[deleted]

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#870

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then, you'd also be against adding folate/folic acid to bread for the same reason? For those who don't know many countries including the US mandate the inclusion of folic acid in bread and certain other foods to ensure pregnant women get enough. A deficiency of folic acid during pregnancy causes birth defects in infants. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folate

I am against adding anything to a whole population to treat a few, folate included. Here is why. Folate is a known stimulant of some cancers. https://aacrjournals.org/cebp/article/17/9/2220/169762/Folic... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13668-018-0237-y https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1463-1318.... (And you know that the first line cancer treatments, like methotrexate, are anti-folates.)…

So instead of the niche individuals and groups working around society to meet their needs—because this absolutely can be done today—-those with an anti-flouridation belief are mandating that the majority give up economy of scale for something that it still wants and needs.

It’s doubtful that this stance is being promoting in good faith.

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