'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture • Hacker News Board

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#861

Post by defrost » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 7:56 AM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #860

dang wrote: post #2

All: if you're going to comment in this thread, please do not do so in the spirit of battle. The latter is off topic here, and the last thread HN had about this did not do well enough at keeping to the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . Instead, ask first whether you can find a place of compassion in yourself before commenting. If you can't, that's understandable, but then please don'…

Since I don't know how to contact you directly ... My comments got rate limited bacause of two or three dumb comments I made over the span of a decade mostly on religious topics. Does the rate limiting get lifted after some time automatically or is this punishment forever? I tried asking people here but they didn't come up with an answer except to try to ask you.

If dang gets overwhelmed with comments here (there are a lot) you can always email directly to hn@ycombinator.com ideally from your email used to register here and ask to be returned to normal after acknowledging dumb comments.

I was rate limited for several months until in conversation with dang about an entirely different matter I mentioned that I'd reply in more detail but for the matter of being rate limited.

I guess that triggered a manual look at my comment history and I was upgraded to "mostly harmless".

I don't expect that to always work as not every reply to comments will get read.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#862

Post by za3faran » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 8:03 AM UTC

mvdtnz wrote: post #746

xg15 wrote: post #525

I don't want to start another top-level thread on this topic, as it is contentious enough already - but just as an aside, the UN General Assembly just passed a (symbolic) resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire with 153 to 10, an even stronger majority than the last resolution. Of course UN votes are always subject to all kinds of political considerations and power dynamics and the saying "nations have no frien…

There was a ceasefire. IDF ended it because Hamas fired rockets and didn't hold up their end of the hostage release bargain. There was a ceasefire before that, which Hamas broke by invading Israel and torturing, raping and murdering over a thousand innocent civilians.

[flagged]

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#863

Post by tsimionescu » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 8:07 AM UTC

isr wrote: post #802

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Ukraine were to bomb a Russian city during the current war, no one would views it as legitimate for Russia to bomb a Ukrainian city back If Kyiv went into Russia to capture children and seniors after gunning down a rave, their Western backing would evaporate overnight. Russia would be vindicated in its claim that their neighbour poses a security threat. Had Hamas hit military installations (demonstrating Israeli…

> Had Hamas hit military installations (demonstrating Israeli impotency) and taken hostages, but treated them well (taking the moral high ground as images of Nonna being served tea and falafel are juxtaposed with those of aerial bombardment), our conversation right now would be very different. Many would argue that this is EXACTLY what Hamas has done, no more, no less. The fog of war is well named. There hasn't reall…

This is very much absurd. It is very clear that Hamas associated terrorists/militants killed many Israeli civilians on October 7th, and abducted some 100 civilian hostages. Abducting civilian hostages is a war crime just as much as killing civilians.

Even the sources you cite show the Hamas militants attacking entirely civilian infrastructure. Even if it is true that some of the Israeli victims were killed by the IDF inside Israel, it is still in response to Hamas attacks on a kibbutz, festival etc. - NOT military installations.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#864

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 8:08 AM UTC

ido wrote: post #852

ramijames wrote: post #708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another Israeli on the left: why are you still there? Why is your family? I'm genuinely curious.

Since 2005 I've only lived in Israel for about 1 year. I currently live in Berlin. For my family, the downsides of immigration are too great vs the downsides of upper-middle class living in metropolitan Tel Aviv. Israel is the only place where their mother tongue is the dominant local language, where their culture is the dominant local culture, where they have their friends and family and professional networks. Where…

[deleted]

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#865

Post by edanm » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 8:11 AM UTC

vacuity wrote: post #552

edanm wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said, even in war, there are long established rules of engagement in war designed to protect (as possible) non-combatants. Israel is not respecting these rules at all. Israel absolutely should be respecting the rules of war. As far as I know, it is. People often like to claim that it's not, hinting at some vague "war crimes" or claiming that Israel is targeting civilians, but there is no proof of that happenin…

Whether Israel is proportionately attacking Gaza remains to be seen. Just because Hamas doesn't care about Gazans doesn't mean that Israel is giving them a reasonable opportunity to thrive, though. That's without mentioning the settler colonialism debacle, which is not as one-sided as some people claim but still an injustice to Palestinians.

> Just because Hamas doesn't care about Gazans doesn't mean that Israel is giving them a reasonable opportunity to thrive, though.

Yes and no. Israel definitely hasn't had clean hands these last 15 years, but on the other hand it did withdraw from Gaza and leave it to themselves to manage. They really, really could've tried to better themselves, the area, etc, and instead chose to continue pursuing violence (via electing Hamas), which led to them being blockaded etc.

Don't forget, Israel was allowing more and more Gazan citizens to enter Israel to work. There are terrible stories (I don't know for sure if these are verified though) that many Gazan workers, who worked for years in the cities surrounding Gaza, actually gave information to Hamas to help them carry out the attack.

> That's without mentioning the settler colonialism debacle, which is not as one-sided as some people claim but still an injustice to Palestinians.

Yes, there's definitely at least some merit to this.

But that's true of almost every country. All of them have complicated histories. How many countries were newly created since WW2?

Only in this one case, a group that arguably got a bad deal (and it is arguable), is still clinging to violence and the idea that they'll "return" 75 years later.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#866

Post by underdeserver » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 8:11 AM UTC

keefle wrote: post #807

ac130kz wrote: post #779

Sorry, but I can only laugh at Aljazeera, an outlet from Qatar, and Qatar is the main sponsor of Hamas terrorists. It's something close to "crocodile tears", when they show these "tortures" after saluting beheadings of Israelis. If they want to destroy Israel and do ethnic cleansing, why do they keep complaining about being bombed and detained.

They are the main channel operating from Gaza, and their reputation is better than many western media channels, especially when it comes to this conflict. We wouldn't have seen many of the atrocities committed live by the IDF if it weren't for them. In addition what they are claiming matches with previously known habits of the IDF, matches with deaths of Palestinian hostages that occurred in Israeli jails, so its not…

Their reputation is terrible. They've picked a side, long ago, and have been continuously working PR for it.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#867

Post by nielsbot » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 8:11 AM UTC

vacuity wrote: post #552

edanm wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said, even in war, there are long established rules of engagement in war designed to protect (as possible) non-combatants. Israel is not respecting these rules at all. Israel absolutely should be respecting the rules of war. As far as I know, it is. People often like to claim that it's not, hinting at some vague "war crimes" or claiming that Israel is targeting civilians, but there is no proof of that happenin…

Whether Israel is proportionately attacking Gaza remains to be seen. Just because Hamas doesn't care about Gazans doesn't mean that Israel is giving them a reasonable opportunity to thrive, though. That's without mentioning the settler colonialism debacle, which is not as one-sided as some people claim but still an injustice to Palestinians.

I think we know enough to say it's disproportionate. 15,000+ dead in Gaza, many more wounded.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestini...

Also remember the Israel had (has?) a policy of responding disproportionately: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#868

Post by xkcd1963 » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 8:12 AM UTC

Yea there is no surprise that those traumatized people will seek revenge in their later years I'd do the same. The cycle of violence continues

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#869

Post by tsimionescu » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 8:13 AM UTC

ashirusnw wrote: post #676

tsimionescu wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be arguing from a bizarre perspective that Israel is the defender here. In reality, Israel is the aggressor, and Palestine is the state that has been under occupation and illegal blockade for decades. October 7th was an (illegal, abhorrent and criminal!) act of retaliation against previous Israeli aggressions, not an unprovoked attack. If Ukraine were to bomb a Russian city during the current war, no one…

Bizarre is viewing Israel as "oppressor" for disengaging entirely from Gaza, dismantling is own Israeli settlements despite massive protests by the seller movements, and only imposing a blockade once a terrorist group took absolute control (and threw Gays and Fatah opponents off rooftops to their deaths) Not to mention the "blockade" is in fact Israel closing its own borders and Gaza has a third border with another c…

> Not to mention the "blockade" is in fact Israel closing its own borders and Gaza has a third border with another country (Egypt).

Gaza has sea access, but Israel doesn't allow any ship to dock into Gaza or leave Gaza - this is blockading Gaza's own sea borders, not closing Israel's. Egypt's border with Gaza is also controlled by Israel through a treaty - Egypt can't unilaterally open its border to Gaza without breaking its treaties with Israel.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#870

Post by RamblingCTO » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 8:13 AM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #392

RamblingCTO wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe rockets wouldn't be shot if Israel would not illegally occupy territories. Tell me you know nothing about this conflict without telling me you know nothing about it. Israel was inches away from just having to give the Palestinians their own state. Why then, did Hamas attack just before that? The answer is simple: it is and always has been about removing Israel. That's true for Hamas and all their supporters.…

> Israel was inches away from just having to give the Palestinians their own state. I follow that situation pretty closely and my understanding is that it was the opposite: The Palestinians' supporters were about to make deals with Israel - deals they refused to make while Palestinian territory was occupied - and leave the Palestinians mostly in the cold. Interview with Hamas leaders after the attack, iirc, said the…

It was my understanding that a deal with Saudi Arabia would have pushed Israel to a more peaceful solution (see https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/09/1141302 and others. note the date) like abandoning settlements and such. Hamas would loose it's foothold with some Palestinians in that case.

> Could it be both? Hamas did something horrible. Murdering civilians isn't justified (why do I need to type that?) but history didn't start that day.

You don't. But I typically don't write a whole disclaimer about such trivial things. What I will say though: Hamas uses civilians as protective shields, hides under hospitals etc. to generate outrage. And you can see it working pretty well. Or shooting rockets from the rooftops of civilian's houses. I don't envy Israel: either shoot civilians or loose your own in rocket attacks. There just is no right here, but one plan of action to me looks less wrong than the other.

Talking about history, I don't understand the whole fuzz about this anyway. Jews have been there for thousands of years. There's even a Quran sunna about "allah promised the children of noah the holy land" (or something like that). You'd think that makes it clearer. To me it feels like the deeply entrenched antisemitism of the middle east is just blind rage.

/e: I really liked this video about the history btw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN4mnVLP0rU